Why Catholics don’t divorce

A while back I had a post on the Baha’i concept of social laws vs. spiritual laws, and how that doesn’t translate well – or at least it translates differently – to the Catholic worldview.

I used the example of divorce, which generated a lot of comments. I did my best to explain how Catholics conceptualize marriage and divorce, but I’m not sure if I was clear. Here is an old clip from South Park from 1998 that says what I was trying to say.

Quality time

112 Responses

  1. I think in ancient times, women did not have the options they do today. Society was mostly agrarian with a pressing need for nuclear families. This is not true in this day and age.

    Marriage can be a great blessing or a terrible bane. A bane that brings out the worst in both parties. Although, it shouldn’t be taken lightly, we really need that option. I know I did. My married life was hell and inflicted great spiritual damage to my soul. Divorce was a spiritual blessing to me,

  2. This is a very painful topic for me, but it is important. Firstly, I try to follow Bahai teachings. Secondly I am in the process of divorce. Thirdly I believe so greatly I the lofty station of marriage that I cannot accept being single. Therefore I don’t plan to remarry, but instead, I am making other plans… Marriage is a metaphor,as almost evrry thing in this physical world is. Unity is , for people like e, a primary symbol of all that we summarize as the highest aspirations of mankind. And I accept full responsibility for its failure. I am not contesting anything.

    I wish there would become a more serious attitude about an act of deciding to get married, in society. Among the collection of friends my age and relatives, divorce is about 50%. God is All-Merciful, All-Forgiving. But this doesn’t comfort me. The purpose of marriage is not considered carefully enough. From the outside our family looked reasonably successful. And this outer face is what we worked hard to preserve. This also cut us off, in our downward circular spiral. I would dare to say that what I know of family counseling outside the USA is somewhat medieval in outlook, and mostly spiritless. I say you, if you are attempting to be a spiritual person, why would you a cept advice from an agnostic/atheist counselor?

  3. I agree, marriage is a serious decision. It is a decision to commit yourself to the other person no matter what that person does or turns into. That’s really heavy.

    That doesn’t mean you have to live with them if they’re abusive, pretending everything is fine. A person in that situation can separate if they need to. But their marriage commitment is still present, and it would be wrong for them to start a sexual relationship with someone else.

    You’re right that marriage is a metaphor. But it’s more than that. It’s also a mechanism by which we learn to be like God. Real love is unconditional, and we must develop our capacity to do that. Choosing to dedicate ourselves to someone else is an act of unconditional love. We can’t say, “I’ll stay with this person unless they do X or Y. Then I’m free to leave them and start up with someone else.” Saying that puts conditions on our love. That’s not real love.

    The Catholic Church tries to instill this in people through marriage prep classes. Anyone who wants to get married in the Catholic Church has to take them. They also have to wait at least six months before doing the ceremony. It doesn’t always work, sometimes because the couple doesn’t take it seriously, or sometimes because the parish staff aren’t good at conducting the classes. But hopefully a lot of couples gain a better appreciation of what they’re getting themselves into. Marriage is not to be taken lightly.

    I wish our popular culture promoted a view of marriage as a school of virtue, rather than treating it as the happy ending of a romantic story. Too many people go into marriage with a warped idea of what it is.

    I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through this. Our lives take strange and tragic turns. It doesn’t mean failure. We are broken creatures, and the brokenness follows us all of our mortal days. As long as we keep turning back to God, asking him for forgiveness and an increase in virtue, then we are living life well, no matter what happens along the way.

  4. When I was young, I thought I was well-prepared for marriage because I grew up in a home with a decent mom and dad who, though they didn’t always agree with each other, respected each other and loved each other very much. Their marriage lasted more than 55 years, ended only when my mom died of cancer. But, I so wish now that I had gone through some type of more thorough marriage preparation. I am Baha’i but my first husband, whom I married in my 20s, was a Christian. And he followed an earlier engagement which was broken before the wedding, also to a Christian. Their being Christian wasn’t the problem (my current husband is Christian also). The problem with my first husband was a very bad temper I saw nothing of until we were married and which degraded into physical abuse before we reached 6 months; and deception about what he truly thought and felt on a myriad of issues. Not sure if a preparation program and waiting period would have been able to flush these out, but I might have been better able myself to get at his real character. As it was, I had to send him away as soon as the physical abuse started; and while I was prepared to wait as long as it would take to get some help, his own pastor told me to cut my losses as my then-husband would not acknowledge he had a problem. That experience so wrenched my young heart and spirit that I didn’t want to look at dating again for a long time.

  5. I am a Baha’i and a former Catholic who has six aunts who are nuns. My brothers wife died and he is marrying a divorced woman. She has to go through an annulment that says she was never married and that her kids were then out of wedlock, this seems rather silly to her. Nonetheless, for my brother’s sake, she is going through that process. BTW, confession of sins was a joke for me and it never stopped me from committing the same sins over and over again. Our parish priest, who later was accused of molesting boys, would hear my confession anywhere I saw him BUT only rarely in the confessional. The Church protected this man (Father Jensen) and he never was prosecuted until he was in his seventies, when his nephew exposed him. Then many of his victims came forward. His line of boys who suffered from him being protected by the Church was very long indeed.

    The beliefs about babies, who are innocent of any sins, going to “Limbo” if they died without being baptized was total nonsense to me. Now the Church has changed on this but why did they believe it in the first place?

    Why believe that you die in mortal sin and can go to Hell for missing church on Sunday or masturbating? That was a belief of the Church when I was growing up.

    I am happy being a Baha’i. Its no coincidence that the Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah performed miracles in front of witnesses (chronicled in the books The Revelation of Baha’u’llah) and of course the miracle of the Bab was witnessed by thousands of people. Baha’u’llah, who was born in Persia, was eventually imprisoned in Israel, a decision made by others. It was there he was imprisoned, eventually let out of prison and pitched His tent on M t. Carmel. All of this is in fulfillment of Bible prophecy, see the book, Thief in the Night. Interestingly enough, there were German Templar Christians living at the base of the mountain and Baha’u’llah met them yet they were totally blind to His Personhood. While imprisoned, He wrote the Pope and asked Him to sell his ornaments and move out of the Vatican. For the first time in religious history, the Pope at that time was actually driven out of the Vatican. He wanted priests to marry and nuns to marry, which makes sense to me. I have been fortunate enough to meet former nuns and priests who now are Baha’is, so I just wanted to share a different window that what is presented here.

  6. Hi Dr J , masturbation is a serious sin , but not necessarily a mortal sin . Other factors must be taken into consideration too , like age and maturity . Mental , emotional and psychological issues too play a factor . Ignorance is also mitigating factor . Missing mass is also a serious sin , but again its not necessarily a mortal sin for the same reasons above . If you were taught that masturbation and skipping church is always a mortal sin then you were not taught correct church teaching .
    Its sad that some priests omitted these important details when instructing their congregation .

    You said :
    BTW, confession of sins was a joke for me and it never stopped me from committing the same sins over and over again.

    My response :
    The fact that you saw confession as a joke may be the reason you continued to persist in your sin.
    Confession is not just about sin away , its about forgiveness and Gods mercy which is greater than any sin we may commit . Confession is also place of renewal . I am sorry that you were never able to experience this .If you did then perhaps you may have a different view.

    My personal experience is very different than yours . I took confession seriously when I came back to Christ and his church .
    Although my first confession was difficult , I did it anyway knowing that Gods mercy is what prevails . Afterward I felt this incredible weight that was lifted from me . Glory to God

    I guess its what we bring to our spiritual journey that really depends on what we will ultimately receive .

    You said :
    My brothers wife died and he is marrying a divorced woman. She has to go through an annulment that says she was never married and that her kids were then out of wedlock

    My response :
    I think you are drawing your own assumptions here Dr J . Getting an annulment does not follow that your Brothers new wife had her children out of wedlock from her previous marriage . If your brothers wife had married with a sincere heart ( wether the marriage was licit or not), and subsequently had children from this marriage then she has not had her children out of wedlock as you have stated .

    You said :
    The beliefs about babies, who are innocent of any sins, going to “Limbo” if they died without being baptized was total nonsense to me. Now the Church has changed on this but why did they believe it in the first place?

    My response :
    The church has never “formally” taught that unbaptised children go to “limbo” . In fact the church has never taught conclusively on this subject one way or the other . So you are quite mistaken Dr J that the church has “changed its teaching” own this matter . The church entrusts all unbaptised children to the Mercy of God . We do , however , believe that all unbaptised children that die will remain in a state of perfect natural happiness for all eternity . That perfect happiness can only come from God . That makes perfect sense to me

    You said :
    Its no coincidence that the Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah performed miracles in front of witnesses

    My response :
    I have read about some of the miraculous deeds of Baha’u’llah . Did he ever raise people from the dead like Christ and the Apostles . Just curious , because I have never heard of Baha’u’llah doing this , and I am wondering if there are episodes of him raising people from the dead.I also read in a Bahai childrens book that Bahaullah bought medicines for someone . It may have been Abdul Baha , but I cannot remember for 100 % certainty . If you know about this story can you please clarify . If not it doesn’t really matter .

    As far as “prophecy fulfilled” by your Baha’u’llah . I am less than convinced of this . for the following reasons , but not limited to ;

    1. The name Baha’ullah ( Glory of God ) is a self appointed title and not one ascribed him from birth. It seems a little too opportunistic to automatically constitute references to the “glory of God” to Mirza Husayn Ali for the reasons above .The claims are far too subjective .

    2. We know from scripture the Jesus Christ himself is the Glory of God
    Hebrews 1:3 tells us such .There are further scriptural references that support this truth . The transfiguration of Christ and ultimately his physical resurrection are testimony to this fact .
    Again , I think It’s opportunistic and utterly unconvincing that Mirza Husayn Ali would be bestowing titles upon himself to that are properly due to Christ .

    I will leave it that , I don’t have the time to reply to everything you said

    God Bless

  7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Catholic_Church

    Most of the arguments in the above link are lodged against Catholicism by the other 38,000 Christian sects and denominations. They didn’t break away from the Church for no reason, it was the gradual corruption and decay of the Church from selling of indulgences to the mass crimes of molestation of boys by priests and the changing of central beliefs. So much of other Christians criticisms are in fact justified and logical.

    Baha’u’llah proclaims His Mission as the Return of Christ and proclaims the “earth is but one country and mankind its citizens”, He abolished slavery and all of a sudden there are incredible human, race and gender rights movements coupled with more inventions than all recorded history combined in 150 years. These inventions from air planes to internet are bringing the earth together as what He called, “one country” and you would argue that all of these events happened for no reason or because of Jesus? How about Christ’s promised return to gradually establish His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven? All of the mass inventions and explosion of technology came from the infusion of the Holy Spirit into world after the twin Manifestations of God declared their missions. Hence, the Bab and Baha’u’llah set down the plan for the New Jerusalem (see the book, He Cometh in Clouds) and it is gradually taking place as the destruction of the old world order including the Catholic Church is happening. All time low numbers of priests and nuns threaten the Church and its existence, equality and the elimination of celibacy are infiltrated the Church. People simply are Catholics on paper or have fallen away from the Church. The Church never drops anyone from their records so no one has any idea of its decrease in membership. All of the above things, including the endless murder and fighting between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland and Europe has created irrevocable divisions. The only hope is unity through the Baha’i Revelation, nothing else will work. These things happened for a Divine reason, not by chance.

    Baha’u’llahs miracles including raising his gardener from dead in front of eye witnesses are chronicled in the 4 volume series of book, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

    Bahá’u’lláh also speaks in this Tablet about miracles which are attributed to the Prophets. He states that one should not deny the performance of miracles by these Holy Souls, but emphasizes that miracles are not a conclusive proof of the authenticity of Their Messages. The greatest and the most evident sign of Prophethood has always been the Revelation of the Word of God. Everything created in this world is a miracle in itself if we look at it with the eye of discernment. For example, the outpouring of energy from the sun is a miracle indeed, for the mind of man could never have believed in such a phenomenon if he had not actually seen the radiance of the sun with his own eyes. In the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh there are many references to miracles. In all of these the Word revealed by the Prophet is regarded as the most potent force in the world. The creativeness of the Word is a miracle.

  8. BTW. there are an increasing numbers of scholarly works that parallel the miracles and lives of Jesus with such Manifestations as Buddha, Zoroaster and Krishna. From virgin births to resurrection cults, to scholars who show that the first gospel came out roughly 75 years AFTER Christ had died and the remaining ones up to 200 years after His death. The different bibles, translations and books indicate early conflicts and divisions soon after Christ’s death. Now Christian scholars like Dr. Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus, Jesus Interrupted etc.) and Bishop Spong are showing such corruption of texts and the reification of spiritual scripture by Church fathers. You need not pick on Baha’is you have way enough opposition within Christianity and its for a reason.

  9. BTW. there are an increasing numbers of scholarly works that parallel the miracles and lives of Jesus with such Manifestations as Buddha, Zoroaster and Krishna. From virgin births to resurrection cults prior to Jesus, much insight into New Testament doctrine is coming out. Moreover, many gospel scholars are showing that the first gospel came out roughly 75 years AFTER Christ had died and the remaining ones up to 200 years after His death, whereas all of Baha’u’llah writings are preserved in their original form with His pen, no original gospel manuscript exist. The 38,000 Christian sects and denominations are faced with trying to justify inseparable divisions and the different bibles, translations and interpretations of scripture, all which indicate early conflicts and divisions soon after Christ’s death. Now Christian scholars like Dr. Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus, Jesus Interrupted etc.) and Bishop Spong are showing such corruption of texts and the reification of spiritual scripture by Church fathers. You need not pick on Baha’is you have way enough opposition within Christianity and its for a reason.

  10. As former Catholic and Hand of the Cause William Sears said, by denying Baha’u’llah, you lose Jesus. In the Tablet of Ahmad, He warns you of serious eternal consequences for denying Him: “Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.”

  11. http://qctimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/defrocked-priest-james-janssen-says-i-m-very-sick/article_a5c49447-bccd-53f7-ae4f-c2c0332b38a7.html

    BTW, I did not see confession as a joke initially until FJ or Father Jensen came on the scene. Father Jensen who was our parish priest when I was in Junior High School and who later in life at age 75 was defrocked for molesting his nephew and then many other boys came forward to prosecute him. FJ had such a cavalier attitude of hearing confessions. He had what he called his posse of boys. They had sex parties with FJ and another priest. He would rarely even go in the confessional but just tell be to say my sins on the spot in front of him. I suppose you wouldn’t call that a joke? For over 60 years FJ molested boys and was simply transferred to different parishes in Iowa. His court transcripts are fully available and the crimes he and another priest did went unpunished due to his protection by the Bishop. This is the corruption that makes a mockery of the sacred, many cases of such priests nationwide–its happening all the time.

  12. YOU SAID ;
    Most of the arguments in the above link are lodged against Catholicism by the other 38,000 Christian sects and denominations. They didn’t break away from the Church for no reason, it was the gradual corruption and decay of the Church from selling of indulgences to the mass crimes of molestation of boys by priests and the changing of central beliefs. So much of other Christians criticisms are in fact justified and logical.

    MY RESPONSE ;
    1. Once again you have made multiple false assumptions . The church never allowed the selling of indulgences at any time in its history . there are no church teachings in its history can prove these false claims .
    But lets not allow the facts to get in the way of a good slander , hey.

    2. Mass crimes of child molestation . Could you possibly be any more overdramatic ????. As terrible as these crimes were , and yes they are despicable crimes , you are nonetheless
    a) grossly exaggerating
    b) neglecting to acknowledge the great social good the church undertakes because of your hatred and bias against the church .
    c) failing to realise that those crimes have absolutely nothing to do with church teaching whatsoever
    d) assuming that all the church and its priests are corrupt because of the crimes of a few

    Your claims of modern technology being the result of your Bahuallah are fallacious and is nothing more than a false equivalence .

    There were great advances in modern technology already taking place before this man even arrived on earth . It was inevitable that mankind was surging forward through the great industrial revolutions .

    You claim that the Holy Spirit brought about these modern changes and advances through the Bab and Bahuallah .

    Think about the untold deaths that are result of the high tech weapons and instruments of war .

    World war 1 and 2 and not to mention the wars that followed with their planes and tanks have enabled men to kill each other more quickly and effectively .

    Modern technology has not brought us closer to God

    If anything our world is now more self indulgent materialistic and violent than at any time in its history
    .
    The internet has been abused by people indulging in pornography and there are those that have been hacking into peoples bank accounts sending viruses and corruption into the databases of businesses and governments .

    Lets have a look at what the great learned men of today think about God and their hatred of any God related . The great Antitheist scientists like Krauss and Dawkins are a demonstration than education will not bring man to a faith in God . Even when endowed with great minds to penetrate the mysteries of the universe , these people cannot see god because of their pride and ego’s

    With all its technology and learning man is more corrupt than ever .

    Lets look at the real mass crimes of our world especially the most detestable crime of abortion .If we are to believe you, then these high tech advanced medical procedures and equipment ushered in by your Bahaullah have led to the most obscene brutality in the history of mankind :

    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth , not the spirit of technology .Technological advances are human endeavours , not spiritual ones . It is truth that sets us free , not technology .

    YOU SAID :
    How about Christ’s promised return to gradually establish His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven?

    MY RESPONSE
    Christ never promised to return to “gradually” establish his kingdom .

    What is very interesting is that an Angel of God told the disciples that Christ would return the same way he left , not the same way he came into the world .

    The many manifestations of the Most Holy Mother of Jesus i.e., lGuadalupe , Lourdes and Fatima, have been a great sign and confirmation for the Catholic faithful .

  13. Next topic to discuss is the topic of Bart Ehrman and Shelby Spong ,both of which I am familiar with .

    I have been reading a brilliant critique of Barts book( misquoting Jesus ) by a brilliant mind and new testament and Geek scholar. I forget his name but I will post it later . He and a plethora of others like William Lane Craig and the apologists at Tektoniks and an astounding arming of incredibly intelligent people who have utterly taken apart both Ehrman and Spong .I suggest googling “critique of Ehrman” or rebuttals of Ehrman were there are numerous rebuttals by scholars .

    No need to discuss this further , These guys have done all the hard work already . God Bless them .

  14. You are the one who hates enough to attack a Manifestation of God with a website like this, not a good idea and when you get to the next world God will show you that, I assure you, I have no website against the Catholic Church because I love it. Although its seen its better days, I believe its the original church of Christianity because our Guardian said that.

    Let me be clear I love the Catholic Church and don’t “hate it” as you suggest. Four out of my five aunts are nuns. I simply am trying to show to you that the Church has absolutely no social relevance today and its impotent, its not going to lead any kind of social or spiritual uplift, its way beyond that. Its a rural religion trying to survive in a modern civlization. Doctrines and senseless rituals do nothing for modern man today. Christianity gradually unfolded and the Catholic Church up until the Reformation was relevant. When Christians fought so much against each other Europeans did away with religion altogether, hence Dawkins and others began to take over their mentality. The Reformation occurred because of alot of bad things the Church was doing, which you know full well about. I have not exaggerated at all, the situation with defrocked priests and priests being protected by Bishops from their crimes is in the news and if you wish I will show you entire websites dedicated to this issue, don’t play dumb to this, you know its a fact. I have tried to show you that the Church has lost its influence in modern times as evidenced by the growth of secularism and the very bad things you blamed on the Baha’i Faith. Its actually the gradual decay of the Old World Order. Today, people do not want to become priests or nuns who do not marry. Christ said He would return to establish His kingdom on earth you sir have no idea in what way He will do this. When He came the first time, Christianity had a gradual development, it just didn’t spring into popularity. Also the destruction of the civilization around it was simultaneous happening.

    Such is the case with the Baha’i Revelation. So there is a dual process of positive growth which happened in Persia after Zoroaster proclaimed His mission and is the case of all civilization after a Manifestation comes and the decay of the Old World with the immorality and corruption you describe. This process is always gradual. We have, according to psycho historian Loyd DeMause more empathy and better treatment of children than in all recorded history today and over the past 150 years since the Baha’i Revelation, even with child abuse happening. Child abuse was on a much wider scale the farther back in history you get. So we have as part of the New World Order the growth of positive parenting (we are kinder to our children than in all of history today) yet the gradual destruction of the Old World Order with it irrelevant religions, their senseless rituals that once in illiterate rural cultures were relevant. divisions, murder and strife has taken over Christianity to the point of no return to the days of the Catholic Church being relevant to civilization.

  15. I want to talk about something which I think needs to be discussed further

    Dr J quotes William Sears with the following .
    As former Catholic and Hand of the Cause William Sears said, by denying Baha’u’llah, you lose Jesus. In the Tablet of Ahmad, He warns you of serious eternal consequences for denying Him:

    MY RESPONSE
    Christians who know , love , pray to , and worship Christ as their Lord God and savour are denying Christ by not giving honours to someone else . What an utterly absurd proposition

    The reason why I want to discuss this is because if christians are to accept bahaullah , they must and will ultimately diminish Christ and cease to give him his due in order to exalt a different person altogether namely bahaullah .

    No Christian person should ever consider that statement by Sears to have any merit whatsoever .

    Christians do not merely honour Christ , we worship him . He is our God He is the source of all goodness and he is the creator of the entire universe .

    He is the Second person of the holy trinity and the sole Son of the Eternal father who lives and reigns as King of Heaven .

    He came into this world to die for each and every persons sins as an act of unparalleled love > he purchased for us the rewards of eternal salvation by the spilling of his blood .

    Without his sacrifice no person could merit heaven.

    His Holy Mother Mary is the Queen of heaven and her unique personhood has no equal amongst any human being save Christ .

    She is the spotless Maid and she is the Immaculate conception .

    She is also our mediator with Christ who is God .

    She is the medaitrix of all her Sons graces. Mary who is the new eve and her Son Jesus who is the new Adam will have victory over satan as promised in Genisis .

    Mary is the mother of all humanity . It is only through her that we can truly know Christ as he aught . She knew him better than any person that has ever lived .

    To become Bahai means to no longer worship Jesus as God and Saviour but instead exalt another in his place

    Christians give Jesus his proper due , Bahai;s do not

    The Bahaullah is “JESUS REPLACED” not “JESUS RETURNED”

    Mary , like the Great Mother she is , has manifested herself on many occasions , and has always asked her Children to repent and return to HER SON. She asks for us all to make reparation for sins committed against God by attending the sacrifice of the mass , praying the rosary , fasting , and works of mercy .

    She said that God was gravely indignant at the state of humanity

    Mary warns us that if we do not heed her requests then humanity will suffer grave consequences .

    The three children were shown a vision of hell and Mary told the children that many souls will perish if they do not return to her Son

    The messages of Fatima are particularly important for this conversation because she manifested herself after Bahaullah departed from this earth . She never mentioned on any occasion that her son had returned

    We can be confident as Christians that it will the the son of Mary , the true Jesus Christ who will return , and not someone else . Lets take the advise our Mother in heaven ,and do the things she asks . She who is the Mother of the Eternal Word .We Christians must refrain from the suggestions that we should give honour to another individual or that we are denying Christ by denying Bahaullah , because its simply false .

    God bless

  16. Your assertion that the church has no social relevance is another false statement that you have made .

    catholic social teaching is inspiring and totally relevant .

    I can only suspect that you have asbsolutely no idea what you are talking about .Have you ever read anything about catholic social teaching

    I completely reject your claim that the church offers nothing to the social fabric of the world . thats just your anti-catholic bias That is just utterly untrue .

    You have a very tatted view of church that is obviously due to your bad experiences and that is partly where your disdain comes from

    You claim to love the church . Your words betray you

    You quote a psychologist claiming that we treat children better today than ever before . What do you call crushing of the sculls of unborn children inside their mothers womb , or the use of poisoning to procure an abortion , or the tearing of of their little limbs from their torso and so on and so forth .

    We are murdering unborn children at an abscenely alarming rate and you think that we have advanced the treatment of children since the advent of the Bahaullah. You must be joking , seriously .

    You make utterly bazaar statements like , “people don’t want to become priests and nuns”. Yes they do and I know some . What the hell are talking about Dr J . You have your head so far buried in the sand its not funny .

    The church is alive and relevant and loved . Its wonderful rich and fulfilling being a catholic and I am sorry you did not experience the church as and many others have .

  17. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/ia-davenport/parishes.htm

    I am from Iowa, the above website tracks Catholic Bishops who have protected priests from criminal prosecution, like Father Jensen and others. When I moved to Louisiana I saw the same thing going on there as well. There are websites which will provide you with proof should you want it. Your put downs and crass comments of me don’t show much Christian love, nor will they change the truth. Honestly you are living in a fantasy world of a bygone era of the Church when it was more socially relevant. The Catholic Church has lost its social influence and power to influence Europe or any country to come back to God, be moral and less materialistic. The Church is in a slow dying process as an institution which represents the Old World Order, its decay in influence and social relevance has been going on since the Reformation and sped up via the Industrial Revolution. The fact that neither Popes nor the Church have not been able to turn the tide of secularization in either Europe or America is positive proof of that assertion, its time for a new religion and a spiritual revolution! When Christ came the first time, His influence and the growth of Christianity took hundreds of years to manifest itself. Such is the case with Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith, it will take time for the world to take in the social principles and spiritual message He has brought to this planet. No hateful website like yours will matter, its a steam roller and its from God so your dirty hands will not cleanse it.

    I have a wealth of research articles that chronicle the impotency of older religions (e.g. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism etc.), document their inabilities to turn back the tide of secularization. In my field of Sociology, this fact is coming out in article after article in the Sociology of Religion. Honestly any fair person, which isn’t you, would admit this reality of the older religions being unable to have any social influence at all and these social trends are only getting worse. Since the older religions cannot do this, only a spiritual revolution of a new religion which is ecumenical and world embracing can bring morality and detachment to an overly materialistic civilization.

    Sadly, you are stuck in a time warp living in the Middle Ages and trying to build a straw man against the Baha’i Revelation, fantasying about a Catholic Church which has essentially lost its authority and relevance today. This process has really been sped up since the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Take Czechs for example, half of the Czechs left the Catholic Church when they came to America. In South America Evangelicals are taking former Catholics by the droves. When I was in Northern Ireland I saw what Catholic and Protestant terrorist groups had done to the country and the population since the 1600s. Today, we see great walls separating Catholic from Protestant neighborhoods, why when they both are Christians? The two groups have segregated schools and sports programs keeping their children from integrating, similar to Blacks and Whites in the Jim Crow South in America. Thank God the Baha’is have been a driving force in trying to bring Catholics and Protestants to the table for dialogue and unity. The Baha’i Faiths message is the oneness of religion, oneness of God (He is not divided into three) and the oneness of humankind (Baha’u’llah was the first Prophet of God to abolish slavery, a practice advocated in the Bible in both the New and Old Testaments). Since He declared His mission in 1863 we have seen more and more human rights for Blacks and after He declared the equality of men and women (not found in Catholic practice or the New Testament) there have been women’s rights and voting privileges granted to women. Of course you wouldn’t credit these miraculous events to Baha’u’llah (you don’t even have the respect for the Lord of Lords to properly spell and capitalize His name when I show that respect for Jesus).

    I am done with this waste of time talking with you but will leave you with the message of Baha’u’llah (the return of the Spirit of Christ) that He wrote to the Pope before he was run out of the Vatican. Baha’u’llah also addressed Pope Pius IX in majestic language, calling upon him to recognize in this day the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus Christ:

    . . . Call thou to remembrance Him Who was the Spirit [Jesus], Who, when He came, the most learned of His age pronounced judgement against Him in His own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take heed, then, ye men of understanding heart! Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself, lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light. . . . Consider those who opposed the Son [Jesus], when He came unto them with sovereignty and power. How many the Pharisees who were waiting to behold Him, and were lamenting over their separation from Him! And yet, when the fragrance of His coming was wafted over them, and His beauty was unveiled, they turned aside from Him and disputed with Him. . . . None save a very few, who were destitute of any power amongst men, turned towards His face. And yet today every man endowed with power and invested with sovereignty prideth himself on His Name! In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn. . . . . . . The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous! . . . This is the day whereon the Rock [Peter] crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” – Summons of the Lord of Hosts, paragraphs 106, 108, 112.

    The supreme pontiff did not respond.

    .

  18. I forgot to mention the people in South America turning away from Catholicism to Evangelical Protestant churches in hopes of finding something relevant to modernity. That’s only another social trend which shows the growing impotency of the Catholic Church but I don’t want to confuse you with too many facts and will let you continue in your hateful attacks of God’s Messenger for this Day. If Baha’u’llah is who He says He is and you are wrong, you have in fact denied Jesus because the two are one.

  19. The Christians of the west shall lead the world to Baha’u’llah.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 2- A New View of History

    And what about us? What about them us? What about the millions of people who make up the mankind” that Baha’u’llah sought to protect from the ignorance of kings and despots? Baha’u’llah’s Message is directed not only to governments but to each individual human being. How odd that our civilization which harnessed the atom, pushed space, discovered so many miraculous secrets of nature, and made so many brilliant advancements in all the sciences, should have left the spiritual realm almost totally unexplored.

    How did it happen that humanity, with its gigantic resources and unequaled brilliance, missed the most important truth of all: a moral and spiritual understanding of history? The real purpose of life, the Baha’i Teachings point out, is the development of a praiseworthy character. The building of moral and ethical virtues is the true business of life for both men and nations.

    Anything that advances this goal is of value and should be encouraged. Anything that hampers, delays, or prevents it, is useless and should be discarded. All life revolves around this goal. It is the reason for existence. Every event in life depends for its ultimate usefulness and value on its direct or indirect connection with this main purpose. It is worthwhile if it forwards this great theme. It is worthless if it does not.

    Any philosophy which does not advance in some way this perspective of life is futile. Any person who devotes himself to something else such as acquiring wealth, seeking pleasure, luxury, chasing ambition, reputation or conquest, and thinks of that goal as having in itself an independent value and importance separate from the spiritual and moral motivation of his life having in itself an independent value separate from the spiritual and moral motivation of his life is, sooner or later, doomed to disillusionment and unhappiness. Such a person is without a real purpose in life. He will be prone to depression and self-destruction in one form or another. He will gradually destroy himself physically or morally or both, through despair or through the excessive physical pleasure by which he seeks in vain to escape his destiny.

    That is the tragedy that is taking place on a planetary scale today. No one loves us. Not our mothers, our fathers, our children, our wives, our husbands, our sweethearts. No one.

    Our families and friends love only the inner qualities we possess — the kindness, generosity, compassion, tenderness, love, justice, fairness, gentleness, consideration; these are the things they love. As we increase these qualities in our lives, their love for us increases. As we lose these virtues, their love for us withers and dies away. And what is true of individuals is also true of nations or civilizations. To acquire these inward moral and ethical virtues is the real business of life, for both the individual soul and society.

    Every other goal is meaningless by comparison. The world today has lost most of these virtues. It continues to lose more. Both men and nations are drifting on the tide of empty materialism. Something must reverse the current. That is why Baha’u’llah has come. That is the Mission of His Faith. The Churches can find no remedy because they have lost their Divine Physician, Christ. His Spirit left them over a century ago when He returned in the glory of the Father, Baha’u’llah, and the churches and their Leaders turned their back on Him- just as they had the first time. The same is true of each of the other great religions of the past. Had this not been the case, the clergy of the world’s religions would have responded to the Message for which they claimed they had been yearning for centuries. Because the Messenger spoke directly to them, individually and collectively, as clearly as He addressed the kings.

    He spoke, for example, to Pope Pius the IX. And the story of that brief encounter and its reverberations in modern history may well be the most dramatic chapter of the entire spiritual drama.

    Baha’u’llah told the Pope that He, Baha’u’llah, was the Father Who had been promised by Christ, the Son. The very One the Pope was awaiting; the One in Whose Name the Pontiff held his position.

    There has been only a century of silence from the church. But the seeds were sown, and let us see what took place a hundred years later.

    “O Supreme Pontiff!”

    Chapter 14
    Section 3- Echoes from the Past

    How many Christians have made a study of the now famous Pastoral Letter of Pope John XXIII, the Encylical “Pacem in Terris” (Peace on Earth)? Most Protestants perhaps couldn’t have cared less. But how many Catholics are aware of its contents?

    For the origins of this Encyclical, which had such far-reaching effects on the 2.000 year old Roman Catholic Church, we must turn back to the words Baha’u’llah addressed to Pope John’s predecessor, Pius IX, in 1869.

    Baha’u’llah told the Pontiff bluntly that the “Father” had come had come as promised by the “Son,” Jesus the Christ. He, Himself, Baha’u’llah said, was that Father.

    The response was less than joyful.

    Perhaps that attitude was understandable a hundred years ago. Regrettable, but understandable. The world head of any religion is not likely to be stirred to his depths when his position of eminence is challenged; especially by such a seemingly preposterous claim; written from a penal colony prison by a condemned Exile.

    Caiaphas didn’t go into spasms of ecstasy when Christ told him He was the “Son of God.” And he met Jesus face to face. Instead, he called Christ a blasphemer.

    We can imagine then the reaction generated by Baha’u’llah’s letter to the Pope. No one even bothered to call Him a blasphemer, although His claim was even more presumptuous than Christ’s. Nor did the Curia exhibit the annoyance and alarm which had been aroused among several of the kings. Instead, a curtain of silence descended around the entire subject.

    Then, in the exact year and exact month of the one hundredth anniversary of Baha’u’llah’s Declaration to the world proclaiming that the sacred promise in all the holy Books had been fulfilled. Pope John XXIII issued His Encyclical Letter which “received world wide acclaim.”

    The praise was justified. Not only did the Encylical deal with the problems facing the world, but Pope John himself was a true lover of his fellow man, a saintly human being. In that Encyclical, the Supreme Pontiff spoke of the following subjects:

    World peace
    A world community
    Search after truth
    Universal education
    Equality between men and women
    The oneness of mankind
    The oneness of God
    The harmony of science and religion
    Disarmament
    A warning concerning atomic energy
    A spiritual solution to the economic problem

    Do these ideas sound familiar?

    They are one and all principles of the Baha’i Faith.

    They are Teachings and Counsels which Baha’u’llah gave to the kings and religious leaders of the world over a century before the Pontiff finally spoke out, exactly one hundred years afterward. How powerfully those words of Baha’u’llah, spoken so long ago, to a Pope in Rome, now ring through the halls of history after a century: “0 Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of moldering bones counselleth thee.”

    Pope John XXIII, because of his sincere love of humanity, and his wise guidance to a troubled world, received the Nobel Prize for peace. He was admired and lauded in all parts of the world by both public and press.

    Yet, he had no more than echoed, faintly at that, and only after one hundred years, the Teachings of Baha’u’llah. He had done no more than to share with mankind ideals which had been denied to the world for a century by the leaders of men, both religious and secular.

    What was Baha’u’llah’s reward?

    He was scourged, chained, banished and imprisoned for nearly half a century. He was denounced as an enemy of religion and civil order.

    The most bitter and persistent of those denouncing His Teachings, whether in Persia, Turkey, or the near east, had been the clergy. The Muslim clergy indeed had taken the lead, but it is an unhappy fact that those who did most to spread these early slanders were Christians, missionaries who feared the loss of their jealously guarded flocks. Their church, however, had only to experience the delayed effects of the Revelation they had so long awaited.

    “Emerge from your palace!”

    Chapter 14
    Section 4- More Echoes from the Same Pen

    It is almost impossible to turn to any great event taking place in the religious world today without tracing its inspiration to the words which Baha’u’llah addressed so long ago to the ecclesiastics of the nineteenth century.

    How many Catholics are aware of the significance of the visit of Pope Paul V1 to the United Nations? How many Christians are aware of the spiritual implications of the Pope’s visit to the World Council of Churches in Switzerland? Or to Kampala, Uganda? All of these events have their “roots” in Baha’u’llah’s Letter written to a Pope in Rome over a century ago.

    Baha’u’llah called upon Pope Pius IX to “emerge” from his “palaces” and “speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven” Baha’u’llah urged Pope Pius to “sell the embellished ornaments” he possessed and “expend them in the path of God.” Baha’u’llah was not asking the Pope to do anything He had not already done Himself in a fuller measure.

    When the hour came for Baha’u’llah to carry out bidding of the Almighty, He was in the “hey-day of His life.” Yet He flung aside “every consideration of earthly fame, wealth and position.” Baha’u’llah was a nobleman of the Province of Nur in Persia. Baha’u’llah cast them all aside, although He knew only too well where such a decision would lead Him.

    During those hours when Pope Pius IX rode the crest of popularity and sovereignty, Baha’u’llah had fallen from the highest to the lowest estate, from wealth to poverty, from freedom to imprisonment.

    Baha’u’llah thanked God for such “tribulations” saying: “The throat Thou didst accustom to the touch of silk Thou hast, in the end, clasped with strong chains, and the body Thou didst ease with brocades and velvets Thou hast at last subjected to the abasement of a dungeon.”

    Baha’u’llah now urged the Pontiff to follow this example. He told the Pope to leave his “palace” and to assist the Father, and to “proffer” His (Baha’u’llah’s) Teachings to the “people of all faiths.”

    In the prison city from which Baha’u’llah sent His Letter to Pius IX, He wrote:

    “The Ancient Beauty (Baha’u’llah) hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness.”

    Such tasks should have been the business of the Pope as well. The Pope declared himself to be the Vicar of Christ on earth. Baha’u’llah told him that the Promised One Whom he awaited had come. The returned Christ was standing before his eyes.

    Baha’u’llah warned the Pope not to reject Him because His Name was different than he expected:

    “O Pope . . . Beware lest any name debar thee from God… Dwellest thou in palaces whilst He Who is the King of Revelation liveth in the most desolate of abodes? Leave them unto such as desire them, and set thy face with joy and delight toward the Kingdom . . . ”

    Pope Pius did none of these things.

    The Pope was soon to suffer the same loss of his worldly kingdom as had the secular rulers.

    In those days, Pius IX was a temporal as well as a spiritual king. As with his fellow monarchs, however, he found himself caught up in the forces released by the “Day of God.” Baha’u’llah had revealed His Epistle to Pius IX, King Victor Emmanuel I suddenly declared war with the Papal States. The royalist troops had entered Rome and seized it.

    The following morning, as the cannonade began, the Pope ordered the white flag to be hoisted above the dome of St. Peter. The Pope shut himself up in the buildings left to him and declared himself to be “the Prisoner of the Vatican.” “Rome, the ‘Eternal City upon which rest twenty-five centuries of glory,’ and which the Popes had ruled in unchallengeable right for ten centuries, finally became the seat of the new kingdom, and the scene of that humiliation which Baha’u’llah had anticipated and which the Prisoner of the Vatican had imposed upon himself.”

    The commands of God in the tablet to the Pope, however, remained to be carried out. The fall of Pius IX did not change the obligation on those who declared themselves the vicars on earth of Jesus Christ. Pope John was the first Pontiff unwittingly out the role assigned to the papacy. His successor, Pope Paul VI, has carried this response much further, and much less willingly. Paul answered Baha’u’llah’s century-old “summons” to “emerge” from the Lateran “palace” and go out “amidst the peoples of the world.” So far he has visited Africa, Asia, Latin America, North America and Europe, thus breaking with twenty centuries of papal tradition.

    One of the most important visits of Pope Paul VI was to the United Nations headquarters in New York City. There he did “speak out” among the leaders of men. He did “exhort” them to “justice” and to be mindful of the things in the holy “Book” of God. Why is this particular event interesting to the student of Baha’u’llah’s story?

    For the following reasons, to give only a few:

    1. Baha’u’llah called upon the kings and leaders of men to establish such an international Body as the United Nations over a century ago.
    2. His son Abdu’l-Baha, visited New York City over three quarters of a century ago. While there, he explained the significances of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant with the peoples of the world. New York City, the United Nations world headquarters, has been named in the Baha’i Writings as the “City of the Covenant” of Baha’u’llah.

    3. Abdu’l-Baha also visited California. While in the shadow of San Francisco, Abdu’l-Baha said that California was worthy to raise the first banner of International Peace. In San Francisco, some thirty years after His visit, The United Nations Charter was written, and the blue and white flag of the U.N., a symbol of peace, was created.

    How remarkable that in this involuntary manner a Pope had answered God’s century-old “summons.”

    While addressing the United Nations, Pope Paul VI, like John XXIII before him, echoed the very principles which Baha’u’llah had given to the world so long ago.

    It is a tragedy for us all that it took over a hundred years! It is a greater tragedy that the Pontiff, a sincere and holy man, was far too late for his words to have any effect. Only one thing could have made his address relevant. He could have repeated Baha’u’llah’s words to his predecessor,

    “He who is the Lord of Lords is come… He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into the fire that which befitteth it.”

    The Pope’s rendezvous with history, however, was not yet complete. Two other specific tasks had been appointed to his office. His predecessors had let them pass, and God would wait no longer.

    Impelled as by an unseen hand, the Pontiff proceeded on the course laid out for him a hundred years earlier.

    “Enter ye into wedlock, so there may appear from you those who will praise God.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 5- O Concourse of Priests

    Baha’u’llah invited the Pope to visit Him in the Holy Land.

    If the Pope loved and remembered Christ, he would open his heart
    to Baha’u’llah.

    “Reliance” on God would be the only “provision” he would need for such a journey.

    It was clear that if he, the Pope, were truly waiting, truly seeking, he would not fail to investigate a claim which had the stupendous moral authority which Baha’u’llah’s reputation was now giving to His words. If the Pope did not come himself, there were hundreds whom he could send.

    The journey was never made. There was only silence from the Church. A century of silence.

    And then one hundred years later, Pope Paul VI visited the Holy Land. Again breaking all precedent, and for reasons which were never made clear, he left Rome and visited the land to which the Messenger of God had summoned his predecessor. Paul VI was accorded a huge welcome, similar to that which had greeted Emperor Franz Josef and Kaiser William I so long before him. It was hailed as a great event in the press. A Pope had come at last to the Holy Land.

    Baha’u’llah came as a Prisoner and an Exile, despised and imprisoned. The “Vicar” who sat on His throne” and held that seat of honor in the Promised One’s Name, against the day of His return, was showered with praise and blessings.

    It was century too late. The Promised One was longer there. Nor did Pope Paul seek to investigate the flourishing center whose Shrines and gardens covered the slope of Mount Carmel in memory of the Prisoner of ‘Akka.

    During the visit of Pope Paul VI to Israel, news arrived at the World Center of the Baha’i Faith announcing that the Teachings of Baha’u’llah, the Glory of the Lord, were well established all over the world. Today over 2,100 tribes, races and ethnic groups in over 130,000 different places on the planet.

    This had been envisioned by Habakkuk :

    “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

    The press, television and radio were all reporting the wrong story. But that had happened before, too.

    There on the side of Mount Carmel, the Vinyard of God, stood the World Seat of that “Kingdom” which the Pope and over five hundred million Catholics extolled daily in their prayers.

    The “Kingdom” had come. God’s Will had been “done” on earth as promised in the Lord’s prayer. The Christ-promised Kingdom had appeared in the exact Spot foretold in passage after passage from the Holy Book revered by the Pope and his people. But, unhappily, neither Catholics nor Protestants were aware of it.

    Surely the echo of Baha’u’llah’s Voice must have reverberated through those Holy hills on the occasion of Pope Paul’s visit. Like rolling thunder those Words must have resounded through Zion, Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, where they were originally uttered:

    “0 Pope?…Lo! The Father is come.” “0 concourse of Patriarchs! He Whom ye were promised in the Tablets is come.”

    “0 concourse of Archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared.”

    “0 Concourse of Bishops!…He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven.”

    “0 Concourse of Priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches…” ‘The Lord is come in His great glory!'”

    “0 Concourse of Monks!…Come forth by My leave…Thus biddeth you the King of the Day of Reckoning… Enter ye into wedlock, that after you someone may fill your place.”

    “0 Concourse of Christians!…Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…O people of the Gospel! . . . Verily, He (Jesus) said: ‘Come after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that we may make you quickeners of mankind.'”

    Ironically, Baha’u’llah’s Letter to Pope Pius IX had repeatedly warned the Pontiff not to make the same mistake the high priests and religious leaders made in the days of Christ. Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself; lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light.”

    Christ Himself had warned against such a calamity. In the chapter of Matthew in which Jesus gave so many proofs of the time of His coming, He also warns that the sun shall be “darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

    The meaning, Baha’u’llah explained, is clear. The “moons” are those religious leaders who take their light from the “Sun” of Christ. Such “moons” and “stars” fade away each morning when the Sun of a new day dawns. In like manner, when the “Sun” of Christ returns, the Sun of the past day is “darkened.” If the “moon” refuses the Light of the new Sun, it too is “darkened” and sheds no light on the problems of men.

    This was the meaning of Baha’u’llah’s Words when He entreated such religious leaders not to turn away from Him:

    “Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth.”

    One more task remained to the itinerant and record-breaking Pope Paul.

    Paul visited the World Council of Churches in Switzerland in June, 1969, thus bringing together leaders from both the catholic and Protestant Faiths. That visit took place one hundred years after Baha’u’llah had urged a Pope in Rome to do precisely that: to offer His Teachings to the other religious leaders of mankind. First “drink” of the Words yourself, Baha’u’llah had instructed Pius IX, then “proffer” them to the “peoples of all faiths.”

    The World Council of Protestant Churches had met before. During one of their international gatherings, the press reported that the delegates found it “impossible to reach a vote” on the subject of Christ’s return. Delegates from 163 denominations from 48 countries “disagreed sharply and fundamentally” on the question of “whether the Christian hope for the establishment of God’s kingdom can be fulfilled in this world or only after the second coming of Christ.”

    He had come, and He had gone!

    For over a century and a quarter, for nearly thirteen decades, the Bab, Baha’u’llah, ‘Abdu’l-Baha, and the followers of Baha’u’llah now flooding the world in over 30.000 different centers in all parts of the planet, have been telling the Christian world that Christ has already returned. He has come and He has gone, just as He the Bible that He would. Christ cautioned that although “all eyes shall see His glory,” He would come “as a thief in the night.” The parable He told made it clear that the divine “thief” would have come and gone! It happened over a hundred years ago! And that is why a world body of the Christian Faith spent hours debating whether they could establish Christ’s Kingdom now or only after He returned. That is why a Catholic Pope broke all precedents and went to meet with them.

    Tragically, they had nothing to say to one another when they met. The Pope did not, in fact, did not understand the impulse which had sent him there. And he demonstrated no awareness of the one message which could have had any relevance for his audience.

    And so they all went home.

    “Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 6- Blind Leaders

    Baha’u’llah has written thus of the clergy of His time:

    “When We observed carefully, We discovered that Our enemies are, for the most part, the divines…”

    He addressed them directly:

    “How long will ye . . . level the spears of hatred at the face of Baha?…follow not your desires which have altered the face of creation.”

    Baha’u’llah tried to open their eyes and ears so they might hear that “new song” spoken of by Isaiah. He said:

    “Purify your eyes that they may hearken unto the voice of God . . . can any one of you race with the Divine Youth in the arena of wisdom and utterance, or soar with him in the heaven of inner meaning and explanation? …can the one possessed of wooden legs resist him whose feet God hath made of steel? Nay, by Him Who illumineth the whole of creation!”

    Baha’u’llah offered an ocean of proof the religious leaders of all Faiths that He was the One they awaited. Yet many not only rejected Baha’u’llah, but they actively opposed, persecuted and tried to stamp out both Baha’u’llah and His Teachings.

    Almost without exception, religious leaders have taken the lead in holding shut the door whenever their followers became interested in the Message of Baha’u’llah.

    Their attacks on the Revelation and their willingness to retell slanders passed on to them by Muslim clergy carries discouraging echoes of the similar actions in the early days of Christianity by the same sort of religious opponents.

    No wonder Baha’u’llah was to write to such clergymen:

    O ye that are foolish yet have a name to be wise! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of the shepherd, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon my flock.”

    It is also not surprising that Christ Himself would warn against such unseeing shepherds of His flock. Jesus said:

    “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the ditch.”

    Yet Baha’u’llah in no way sought to degrade or belittle the importance of the world’s religious leaders. Rather, He praised unreservedly those religious leaders whose actions and conduct conform to their words. He has said that:

    “The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls.”

    Of such a sincere religious leader, whatever his religion or denomination, Baha’u’llah has also written:

    “The inmates of Paradise, and the dwellers of the sacred Folds, bless him at eventide and at dawn.”

    Such spiritual giants, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or of any other religion are “as the spirit to the body of the world.” Baha’u’llah declares and “as an eye unto the world.”

    It was two Christian clergymen, from the missionary field, who first introduced the Baha’i Faith to America in 1893 at the World Parliament of Religions. One wrote the paper describing the “Christ-like” sentiments of Baha’u’llah. The other read the document to the assembled audience.

    Over four hundred outstanding priests of the Muslim Faith, some of them the most illustrious in the land, recognized and accepted the Bab and Baha’u’llah as the promised Messengers of God. They made great sacrifices for their faith. Many were martyred.

    Clergy of all Faiths have since embraced the Teachings of Baha’u’llah, from Catholic priests to Buddhist monks. But in almost every instance they have been shunned by their former colleagues, belittled, ridiculed, persecuted, and in some instances killed.

    It is too late to patch up and sew together a pathetically fragmented Christianity. Hundreds and hundreds of sects in a patchwork quilt of curious variations compete with each other for the Body of Christ. Even the hopeful signs of an ecumenical drawing together is but the unwitting results of Baha’u’llah’s Message of oneness. Almost against their will the unifying forces of life drive these broken and tattered pieces before the wind toward one common destination — unity.

    And if all the multitude of Christian sects united, there would still remain Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, agnostics, atheists and primitive peoples. Baha’u’llah, the Father, is reaching out an embrace to all religions and all peoples, not just to Christianity alone.

    Baha’u’llah was saddened at the apathy of the Christian masses who had been given so many opportunities, yet who stood by indifferently while multitudes from other religious heritages entered the Faith of God ahead of them:

    “O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate . . . Open the doors of your hearts. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face?”

    In a poetic reference to His own appearance in the East as foretold in Scripture, and His exile to the land of Jesus, where His Kingdom was established, He asks:

    “O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and traveled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him [Jesus]?”

  20. Finally, let us put to rest with other Christians and members of world religions the fallacies at Lourdes and Fatima

    In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France, a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as “the Immaculate Conception,” appeared to her some 18 times.* You’d think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged “mother of a god” was: “Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world.” Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.

    To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous’s claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that’s a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. “From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.”* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you’re thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn’t be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?

    Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

    The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer…well, he wasn’t really dead or she didn’t really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression “Lourdes effect” to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It’s certainly not a matter of difficulty.

    The grotto near Lourdes in 1858

    Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water’s free if you go there. For those who can’t make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100€ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.

    Fatima “prophecy”

    Lúcia de Jesus dos SantosLúcia de Jesus dos Santos (1907-2005) of Fatima, Portugal, grew up to become a Catholic nun known as Sister Lúcia of Fátima. As a child of nine or ten she and two cousins claimed the Virgin Mary appeared to them in the sky above a field where they were tending sheep. Perhaps they had a collective hallucination. Perhaps the ghost of a person who has been dead for 2,000 years and who is thought by Catholics to be the human mother of a godman really did choose three Portuguese children to tell them what their parents, relatives, priests, and nuns had been telling them all their lives: Sin and you’ll go to hell. Lúcia also claimed that Mary told them three secrets. In 1941, after her cousins had died of the flu, Lúcia “revealed” two of the secrets. She kept the third secret a secret, however, until she thought she was on her own deathbed.

    The first two secrets involved a vision of hell and a prophecy that WWI would end–good call in 1941–and that if people didn’t shape up there would be another war soon. Perfect record, so far. In 1944, Lúcia wrote down the third secret when ordered to do so by Dom Jose Alves Correia da Silva, the bishop of the diocese of Leiria-Fatima. The third secret was sealed in an envelope that was opened in 2000.
    A large cult following grew out of these religious fantasies and pilgrims from all over the world still beat a path to Fatima to pray, do penance, leave money, and hope for a miracle. Many devout followers were sure that Mary had told the children when the world was going to end. They were gravely disappointed when it was revealed that the expected doomsday “prophecy” or “vision,” though apocalyptic after a fashion, didn’t say much more than repent or you’ll be sorry! Sister Lucy’s vision of arrows and bullets slaughtering popes, bishops, and priests might bring a smile to a few anti-clerics, however. Below is an English translation of the Fatima “prophecy”:

    ….at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!’. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it’ a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.*

    Lúcia was a person who lived in a “delirious world of infantile fantasies” and suffered “religious hallucinations.” That is how ex-friar Mario de Oliveira described her (Sunday-Times, UK, June 29, 2000). He went much further in his claims, accusing the clergy of Ourem and the Catholic Church of psychological abuse. Father Mario de Oliveira claims the two children who died from the flu died due to religious fasting. Fatima, he says, is a hoax kept alive because of the attention it gets and the money it makes.* Lucy and her cousins were certainly delusional and the Catholic Church certainly exploited their delusions. Were the children of Fatima pious frauds or innocent victims of indoctrination? I lean toward the latter.

    Lúcia was a 93-year-old cloistered Carmelite nun when the third secret was revealed to the world. Apparently, the cloistered life, for all its austerity, didn’t kill her. When the third secret was revealed, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later to become Pope Benedict XVI), said that she might have conjured her vision from devotional books. According to the Sunday-Times (UK, June 29, 2000), many people in Portugal and beyond were angry because the secret was not a doomsday prophecy, thus making their recent penitence and contributions unnecessary. Some conspiracy mongers think the 3rd prophecy is a forgery, but the vision is so generic and pointless as to make that notion seem absurd even if true.

    See also Lourdes.

    further reading

    Hume, David. An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X “Of Miracles,” (1748), Bobbs-Merrill, Library of Liberal Arts edition.

    Nickell, Joe. Looking For A Miracle: Weeping Icons, Relics, Stigmata, Visions and Healing Cures (Prometheus Books: Buffalo, N.Y., 1993).

    “Miraculous” Phenomena, by Joe Nickell, in The Encyclopedia of the Paranormal edited by Gordon Stein (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1996).

  21. Your contiuous assertion that the church has no relevance is beyond rediculous and goes to the point of being malicious . This is the true Spirit of Bahaullah . You Echo his maliciousness of religion with by your disdain . Any information regardless of how true it is will do for you . You cherry pick all your information and present them as proofs I can hardly take you seriously . It is quite obvious Dr J that you are going to submit so much information that it would be impossible to rebut all your comments . Well that’s fine . .You obviously have have a great deal of time on your hands , but I do not . But I will answer your posts and refute what much of you have said as I have done in all your previous posts . You present many non sequitur arguments ,made numerous false assumptions , used biased sources like newspapers who site disgruntled ex churchmen , credited bad scholars like Bart Ehrman and Shelby Spong as your so called proofs of your arguments , presented illogical arguments such as cheery picking favourable historical data to fit your claims about Bahaullah whilst you overlook the other factors and negative data which contradicts your claims about Bahaullah . You refence statements made by Pope benedict regarding Lucia but do not site a source. In Particular I am going to rebutt your slanted view on Fatima too as I have already done on a Bahai blog recently .

  22. Why is my assertion that Catholicism is outdated malicious? Is it anymore malicious or ridiculous than your continual pursuit of disproving and maliciously attacking Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i beliefs? You don’t want dialog you want to simply prove you are right, be honest and admit it, right? Your entire website is for two reasons: to prove you made the right decision in denying Baha’u’llah and becoming a Catholic and to show how Baha’i theology is flawed or wrong, right? But you appear to like to place yourself in a more lofty position as not being malicious and others who disprove your assertions as “malicious”, it would be funny if it were not so sad. You are being a hypocrite, plain and simple. You are way more malicious in attacking people who disagree with you than I have been, if you are fair you would have to admit that.

    You know that the Catholic Church is slowly giving way to Christian evangelicalism and secularism worldwide. Its lost its influence on the country of Italy let alone societies worldwide or do you think it can somehow create a spiritual Renaissance doing away with secularism and materialism in Europe or America? But you think that in some magic way the Catholic Church will bring all these people into their fold?

    Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.

    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  23. Your position is malicious because you make utterly false assumptions about catholic spirituality and the church .
    All this from a faith that claims it will unify the world . I have disagreed with your claims about Bahaullah being Jesus and have good reason , but
    I have never said that your religion is irrelevant , as you have
    I have never referenced shonky scholars , as you have
    I have not made false assumptions about Bahai teaching , as you have mine
    You glossed over negative data that is problematic to your claims about the Holy Spirit coming into the world through this so called manifestation
    I have not launched into character assignation as you have towards lucia
    I have not used newspaper editorials as proofs as you have .

    I have not cheery picked data that bolsters my grandiose beliefs

    All this from a man who is trying claim credability for his religion .

    Many of your statements are malicious because they are not only false , but blatantly false , and you know they are , but you have not owned up to any of them .

    How can anyone take anything yo say seriously when so many .

    Your demonstrate a spirit of antagonism by the way in which you unjustifiably misrepresent catholicism .

    If you have to prove your religion by assassinating another then you faith are no different to the ones it claims it has fulfilled .

    You prove your religion false by your hostility . How can your religion be the shining light of this world and a beacon of truth and peace when the spirit which lies beneath it is hostile and generates its followers to to spread blatant lies about other religions

  24. You can’t be serious, is the kettle calling the pot black? Major correction to your delusions: I am not hostile you are the extremely hostile one. Read what you just said, you are the one who shows no love of Jesus in attacking other peoples religions to elevate your own and dedicating a website to that. It is you who puts people down for their ideas or beliefs if they support Baha’i theology. You must not read what you say. Reread what you say about the Baha’i Faith, your entire website is dedicated to one thing: justifying your denial of Baha’u’llah and resignation from the Baha’i Faith by elevating and promoting the perceived superiority of the Catholic Faith. I am hear to dispute your allegations and slander of the Baha’i Faith.

    I didn’t establish a website dedicated to discrediting the Baha’i Faith while building up and crediting the Catholic Faith, that is totally YOU. Those things come from YOUR hands not mine. You won’t even answer my questions and instead you go off on these irrational rants attacking me or anyone who defends the Baha’i Faith against your allegations and your delusions of and promotions of the Catholic Church and doctrines. If I hated Catholic like you hate and disrespect Baha’i then I would build a website like yours defending why I became a Baha’i from being a former Catholic. I will not apologize for defending my Faith against your websites put downs of it, where you constantly try to show how Catholicism is superior and better.

  25. Its really demonic trying to attack a Faith, justify your backsliding and then build up your new religion by comparing it with your former one. Thats doing a great disservice to the world, believe me.

  26. Again I ask you, since you want to prove your new religion is superior to Baha’i, answer these questions: Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.
    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  27. Dr J , this is not my website .

    Do you see how divisive this man has become . Now we have two competing Christs’
    I and virtually every christian cannot accept with all sincerity that Jesus was ever going to return as a mortal individual again just to confuse people between his two historical selves , thus raising consternation and division about himself .

    Christ fulfilled his purpose on this earth .

    The question thus arises ; which Jesus do you believe in ?????

    The very nature of Bahaullah’s claims have brought great division between Bahai’s and Christians because , as I just stated , we now have two competing Christ’s .

    According to Bahaullah , all the Christian “divines” have deceived men to such an extent that once Mohammed had arrived that were incapable of coming to terms with his manifestation .

    I challenge any Bahai out there to tell me what was so great and important about the teachings of Mohammed that all Christians should have abandoned their Faith in Christ left their post and taken up the cause of Islam .

    I utterly reject Bahaullah’s claim that Christian divines have deceived the people . If all these men could have deceived so many , then why not Bahaullah too . If all these men could have deceived , then one more doesn’t add a lot to the equation

    Christian persons have every right to question any person that claims to be Jesus or a prophet especially in view that Christians believe that Christ is Truly God and truly man . Among other things ,Christians who would adopt an Islamic or Bahai view of Christ would actually be “downgrading” . I and every other Christian that knows Jesus intimately would not be be truthful to themselves if they blindly accepted  any new revelation from any individual . That does not necessarily make me hostile . It means that I am prudent and cautious . You may disagree with this analysis , but that is your prerogative .

    The nature of Christ and our Trust and fidelity to him is a central feature of our faith . Jesus Christ was no mere manifestation of God like perhaps Moses or Abraham , but is in fact God almighty who has visited his people in person .

    Jesus is infinitely beyond Moses and Abraham for many reasons , and the following verse presents us with further proof of Christ superiority to Moses and Abraham , who according tho Bahai’s are equal manifestations .

    Remember that Moses and Abraham were not worshipped as Christ was .

    John 8:58-59

    Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you, Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area.…

    I want to present the following texts to further support our claims that Christ is none other than the Eternal God

    1 John 4:1

    1.Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world
    2.This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,b
    3.and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus* does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
    John tells us that there is a malevolent spirit active in the world that has been deceiving people through false prophets

    John assures us that we should stay focused on the truth of the incarnation . John here also re-affirms what he has stated in his Gospel , that we must accept Christ as the eternal Son of the Father WHO came to us through the incarnation .

    Below is in part the greatest theological statement ever penned in the history of this world . No utterance or stroke of the pen has ever decreed a truth so manifestly important to mankind .

    For all the eloquence of Bahaullah’s writings , none of his words have ever decreed a truth as profound or as important as this

    JOHN 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word ( Jesus ) , The Word ( Jesus ) was “with God” and the Word “was GOD” .

    Christ was “with God” and “was God”

    Jesus is his Fathers’ exact representation and is his substance . He is the Eternal God who created all things . Christ is in essence the same God but a distinct person from the Father . Christ is the Eternal Word who was “WITH” God from all eternity .

    Isaiah also prophecies that the coming saviour will be none other than God himself :

    Isaiah 9:6

    “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD , Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” .

    This is also a prophecy that Bahai’s try to claim for Bahaullah Christ and erroneously attribute to Bahaullah . This is none other than an effort to fallaciously attribute prophetic literature to someone other than who it is intended for ……Jesus Christ .

    The other prophecys too point to Christ as the fulfilment .

    Its really fails when one tries to conceive that Isaiah would be prophesying of two Christs . Since Christ fulfils all other OT prophecy concerning the promised on off God , its a bridge too far to attribute this prophecy to Bahaullah

    Christ is none other than the Emmanuelle , The God who has visited his people as Mathew alludes to from old testament prophecy .

    Matthew 1:23

    …22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”).

    Christians do not honour Christ , they worship him because he is their God , the eternal and everlasting king and sovereign ruler of all nations .We have absolutely no need whatsoever to incorporate another Jesus into the mix , nor should we abandon him for another .

    There is no Jesus but Jesus

  28. First of all, Baha’is don’t believe all the Manifestations have the same impact on the world, Jesus had more impact than Moses or Abraham but they all are one nonetheless. We love Jesus and believe in Him, so much so, that we have opened our eyes to His return by a new name. Something Christian Templar’s who built their homes at the base of Mt. Carmel were waiting for but were blind and did not have an eye to see Him when He appeared to them.

    This entire website is built to elevate the Catholic Faith and tear down the Baha’i Faith. So lets be clear about who is the attack person, its this websites builder–a disgruntled former Baha’i who has an ax to grind and who suffers from apostasy.

    As an ex Catholic I have not built a website to tear down the Catholic Faith. Although I think its seen its better days and today is just one of 38,000 varieties of Christianity, I still respect and love it. Don’t pretend there is any version of a unified Christianity or Christian thought, that is delusional. I will say that I have four aunts who are nuns who have devoted their entire lives to Catholicism, so the respect is there for my former faith. BTW, Muhammad came to this world to re-establish monotheism and disprove the false doctrine of the Trinity. The idea that God is divided into three is a doctrine this link shows is not one that all Christians share, see:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism

    Catholics and Protestants hate each other in Northern Ireland, they have fought in Europe for a long long time, creating a growing division, an expanding amount of atheism and secularism which only the return of Christ by in the Glory of the Father (Baha’u’llah’s name in English) can change.

    Religions (Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Christian, Islam etc.) that are born in rural cultures centuries ago are not meeting the needs of modern urban cultures. They are not going to reawake Europe to God and create any spiritual reawakening, that is why Baha’u’llah came as promised by Jesus Himself.

    You cannot explain the miracles of the Bab in front of thousands. You cannot explain, what force caused the profusion of inventions from 1844 to the present, more than all recorded history combined to create the earth as one country, a central principle of Baha’u’llah. Was it just a coinsidence that Baha’u’llah as banished to Israel and pitched His tent on Mt. Carmel (the Mountain of God) and fulfilled all that Bible prophecy as chronicled in books like, He Cometh in Clouds or Thief in the Night? Christ made it perfectly clear that “God is GREATER than I (Jesus)” those are His words. Here is a small amount of other proof: To a Christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

    ‘And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’ (Exodus 3:7)

    God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he is to repent sincerely in order to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.

    ‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22, Jonah 3:5-10)

    Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called inter cessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves. There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

    Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus:

    *What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh?

    *During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood that was shed from his wounds? Did the cells of his body die as ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)

    Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death?

    Unless Jesus’ body never underwent ‘decay’ during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo ‘decay’ then he was not truly human.

    Bible says that God is not man

    ‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

    ‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

    Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible

    ‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

    ‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

    ‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

    ‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)

    The Bible says that God is not a son of man

    ‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

    The Bible often calls Jesus ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’

    ‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)

    ‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)

    ‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)

    ‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)

    ‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)

    In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).

    Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called ‘the son of man’, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called ‘son of man’ specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a ‘son of man’ according to the Bible.

    The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God

    Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

    And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

    Jesus did not teach people that he was God

    If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

    The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus

    ‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

    ‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

    Jesus cannot be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

    Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him

    ‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

    ‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)

    ‘The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)

    If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself

    Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

    In the four volume series, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah it shows He performed miracles in front of witnesses, including bringing His gardener back from dead. But witnesses to the miracles of Baha’u’llah or the Bab do not prove THEIR mission, their words do. You are trying to make something out of ignorance and misrepresentation of Baha’i beliefs, and at the end of the day, by “denying Me you deny all the Prophets of the past and showeth pride toward God from all eternity to all eternity” so you lose Jesus in the process, a very bad deal for you.

  29. BTW, you did not answer, for a good reason, these questions above, so I will re-post them for you Catholic58.Again I ask you, since you want to prove your new religion is superior to Baha’i, answer these questions: Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.
    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  30. To answer your question about whether all this was done to fool christians : I will say this:

    Even the Millennialist’s or German Templars , whose heresy was condemned by the church 1500 prior to this heresy resurfacing , still would not have been so naive as to see Bahaullah as Christ returned , for they too know that Christ was resurrected Bodily and are awaiting His Glorious return from heaven , the way in which he left as clearly stated in the new testament . The apostles “witnessed” Christ ascension into heaven and were told that his return would be in the same manner of his departure , not a rebirth into the womb of another woman , for that would be impossible as christ already was in possession of a physical , glorified body . Christ therefore did not dispose of this Glorified and incorrupt Body and become a mortal man once again

    Its interesting that the Carmelites also lived on this mountain , but unlike the Templers were not poised on this mountain awaiting the return of Christ , because they knew there was no way of knowing when Christ would return . Even Christ in his humanity did not know when he was returning , so how is it that mere sinful men could calculate something which Christ himself did not know ???

    Christ even stated that the Angels in heaven , who would have knowledge beyond any earthly person did not know.

    Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.…

    Besides that , They certainly were not expecting their Jesus to waltz by and pitch a tent , so that would ultimately explain why the Templars would not have “recognised”his person-hood . There was absolutely nothing to recognise .

    Its interesting too that Mary has a strong prophetic ,biblical and historical connection to Carmel . In fact she is called our Lady of mount Carmel because she appeared to St Simon Stock

    in fact Mary , by no mere coincidence , has a connection to the old testament unparalleled by anybody save Christ .She is also the fulfilment of Gods promise to ultimately save humanity with her son as told in Genesis .

    The Mother of Jesus has manifested herself here at Carmel , which of course has far greater implications than it might seem at first .But alas I will not get into that here .

    It seems utterly preposterous that Jesus would return as a distinct human being and compete with himself for his own honour and glorification .
    Because he has been raised corporally from the dead . Jesus christ cannot be two human persons .

    Christ did not come in Glory when he entered this earth 2000 years ago , because he abandoned his glory in heaven to take on the role as servant and slave . *****

    Phillians 2:6-7
    Who,* though he was in the form of God,d
    did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.*Rather, he emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,coming in human likeness;*and found human in appearance,

    Christ had emptied himself of his Glory to become a man and a servant . As a mortal human person Christ was “not” in his Glory .

    He did , however , “possess” this Glory of his as the eternal God manifest in the flesh , but that is not the same as being “in his Glory” . The transfiguration of Christ at Mt Tabor demonstrates that although Christ was not “in his glory” as mortal man , he did possess within himself , subdued and hidden within his humanity ,all the attributes of God , which he revealed to Peter John and James

    It was not until his resurrection and ascension did Christ finally return to his glory . This is the glory in which he existed before his incarnation .

    If Christ is to return “in his Glory” as scripture tells us Then Christ cannot become mortal again because he has already conquered death .

    Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    Christ will retain his Glory when he returns and “not” return as a slave and servant . By returning as a mortal Christ would therefore “NOT” be in his glory ,he would be subject to death once more , which is impossible as Christ cannot be subject to death anymore Therefore the expectant return of christ will be exactly as promised by the Angels at his ascension .

    Acts 1:11

    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Christ is never to die again ………..why , because he has conquered death and has risen bodily to his glory with his Father

    the Bahaullah cannot therefore be the returned “Glorified” Christ , because he ultimately died and subsequently was ‘not raised” from the dead either as Christ was . Bahuallah therefore has no power of death .

    In the book of certitude , The Bahaullah tries to convince us anyway that he is the returned Christ by re-interpreting the events surrounding Christ’s return . He believes that Christians are wrong to believe in the literal return of Christ , but he has magnificently underestimated the faith of Christians , and for my money it demonstrates his detachment from understanding the certitude and faith that Christians have towards their Lord God and Saviour , Jesus Christ .

  31. St John tells us to test all spirits to see if they are from God If there are good Spirits , it follows that there are also bad or malevolent or Demonic spirits .

    You said that its demonic to attack a faith .

    You say that my hostlilty is demonic . Bahia’s don’t believe in demons , at least not personal ones ????

    To Answer your statement about whether I believe the Devil is the cause of this revelation , I will say this to you :

    There is absolutely no doubt that Satan exists . Jesus says of him in

    John8:44 “
    He is the Father of lies and was a liar from the beginning .

    This is no allegory . Jesus Christ has assured us that the devil is an historic personal being who lies and deceives

    Its very convenient for Bahai’s to reject the idea that Satan is a real entity , because genesis tells us that it be the Woman and her seed that will ultimately destroy Gods emeny .

    GENESIS 3:15
    “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

    that doesn’t fit very well with Bahai concepts so they reject that satan exist entirely so that they can propagate their own Christ who Bahai’s believe will have victory in this world

    Again we have two competing Christs’ , One is the real Christ and the one is another Christ competing with first for Titles and Honours

    There is a spiritual war going on in this world and it is between The Spirit of Christ ( The Holy Spirit ) and father off lies ( Satan ). Satan can and does deceive many people . He has power that is unimaginable and has an intelligent beyond what mere mortal men could comprehend . Satan can and does influence men …..yes even intelligent , God fearing people can be lured and deceived by him If they allow themselves to be left vulnerable .

    I believe that Satan would relish any moment when any person might not Confess Christ as their Lord , God and Saviour .

    I have known someone who had diabolical possession as well as heard testimony of priests , as exorcists , that have come in contact with diabolical entities . This is not the stuff of fantasy . The internet is full of testimonials from satan worshippers who have been converted to christianity and testify that satan is real and is powerful .

    There are a plethora of saints too have given testimony to the reality of satan
    I am not attacking your faith with falsities , I just don’t believe that your Bahuallah is Jesus , and I am voicing my reasons for not believing . That does not make me malicious . If I was spreading lies about the Bahai’s then that would be quite another .

    There is much much more I could say about this , but I will leave it at that ; i think I have made my point here

    I will discuss this further down , but first I want to address the following :

    Do I believe that the Bahaullah went to Carmel by chance?????
    Of course not is the answer .
    This is what I believe .
    I believe that your Bahaullah believed he was Christ returned . I have no doubt that he truly believed this . He is not the first person to believe he is Jesus either . There are many people have believed that they have been Christ and this is not a new or isolated phenomena .

    I don’t necessarily believe he deliberately set set out to fool people as such . I don’t necessarily believe he was malicious to the extent of deliberately deceiving people , but I cannot know for certain one way or the other . My opinion may change as time goes on . I do believe , however , that he had a festering hatred of Catholicism as you do and his writings adequately demonstrate this . For me this hatred of Catholicism is the opening of the door for “satanic suggestion” .

    I believe that he was an extraordinarily intelligent individual , a gifted writer , and that received mystical visions ; but i am not at all convinced that every mystic receives authentic visions or revelations from God . I believe that evil spirits can cause people to have mystical experiences in order to pervert true mysticism that does comes from God alone .

    We have to test these spirits . there are numerous catholic men and women who have received mystical revelations too and St Pio testifies that satan had actually tried to deceive him by appearing as Mary as well as beat him with chains . There are a plethora of catholic Mystics who have had beautiful visions a swell as horrid ones from demonic forces

    I believe that many of Bahaullah’s social teachings are good and reasonable , but not all of them , in particular his view on polygamy , but there are more . I certainly admire his efforts to bring about some change in the social sphere of humanity but I utterly reject the grandiose indulgence of Bahai’s that naively believe this new social model will change all of humanity forever , bearing in mind that , contrary to Bahai teaching , God does indeed have an adversary and he is still reigning wild on this earth and has not as yet been dealt his final blow . That adversary is Satan

    It is going to take something dramatic to change the course of this world and a mere social blueprint is just not going to be enough to change the hearts of all men .

    We only need to look at the depravity of this world to see how much our world has descended morally in the last 150 years. The advances in technology have been offset by the grand depravity of the modern secular world , particularly the unparalleled evil of abortion….but I digress

    As I stated in a previous post , I believe that Mirza Husayn Ali gave himself  this name Bahuallah ( Glory of God )  in a conscious , deliberate and methodical attempt to somehow align himself with biblical prophecy . If he was going to call himself Christ returned then it was of an utmost importance that he change his name Bahaullah and journey to Carmel .This subsequent journey to Isreal ( in particular Carmel ) was necessary for him to achieve this so called  fulfilment . Pitching his tent in Carmel was a deliberate and well thought out act in order to claim prophecy fulfilment .
    So yes I believe he went to Carmel  deliberately and was part of his master-plan if you like .

    As I stated in previous post ; I find that the self bestowal of the title Bahaullah ( glory of God ) was opportunistic and a purposeful manoeuvre by Mirza Husayn Ali .

    That does not qualify for for biblical fulfilment

  32. There you have it Dr J , I answered your question . Lets continue this conversation . .

  33. Just like I thought you have no explanation for the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Nor can you explain how Baha’u’llah wound up in Palestine not by His own hands, an act of government which helped Him fulfill so many important prophecies. You are dumb founded and have no reasonable explanation, period.

    You are blind and your reification of sacred scripture is wrong, simply dead wrong. You have taken that which was strictly spiritual and materialized it. The same sin the Jews did in reifying Old Testament prophecies in not recognizing Jesus when He came the first time.

    The Buddha, who in many books is compared with Jesus, said whenever the world is in decline another Buddha will come, and yes finally the fifth Buddha of universal brotherhood, exactly Baha’u’llah and not Jesus. Jesus did not come to bring peace and brotherhood but a sword. The Universal House of Justice, placed by no chance on the Mountain of God, says it well here:

    http://bahai-library.com/uhj_resurrection_return_jesus

    In many of His conversations Christ speaks of the future Manifestation of God in the third person, but in others the first person is used. He says: “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself” (John xiv, 2–3). In the first chapter of Acts we read that the disciples were told, at the ascension of Jesus: “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Because of these and similar sayings, many 223 Christians expect that when the Son of Man comes “in the clouds of heaven and with great glory” they shall see in bodily form the very Jesus Who walked the streets of Jerusalem two thousand years ago, and bled and suffered on the cross. They expect to be able to thrust their fingers into the prints of the nails on His hands and feet, and their hands into the spear wound in His side. But surely a little reflection on Christ’s own words would dissipate such an idea. The Jews of Christ’s time had just such ideas about the return of Elias, but Jesus explained their error, showing that the prophecy that “Elias must first come” was fulfilled, not by the return of the person and body of the former Elias, but in the person of John the Baptist, who came “in the spirit and power of Elias.” “And if ye will receive it,” said Christ, “this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” The “return” of Elias, therefore, meant the appearance of another person, born of other parents, but inspired by God with the same spirit and power. These words of Jesus may surely be taken to imply that the return of Christ will, in like manner, be accomplished by the appearance of another person, born of another mother, but showing forth the Spirit and Power of God even as Christ did.

    Bahá’u’lláh, whose name you don’t have enough respect to spell correctly, explains that the “coming again” of Christ was fulfilled in the advent of the Báb and in His own coming. He says:—

    Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of 224 all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.—Kitáb-i-Íqán,21

    ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
    Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but rather signifieth the One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the Kingdom of God and His Power which hath surrounded the world. This dominion is in the world of hearts and spirits, and not in that of matter; for the material world is not comparable to a single wing of a fly, in the sight of the Lord, wert thou of those who know! Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning, and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense “Christ” is an expression of the Divine Reality, the simple Essence and heavenly Entity, which hath no beginning nor ending. It hath appearance, arising, manifestation and setting in each of the cycles.

    You are simply blind with no spiritual eyes to see, you will find this truth out on judgment day, that I assure you. Whats even worse is the justice that you must face for being the conductor of this terrible website. I see no point in carrying on this discussion with a spiritually dead man.

  34. Just briefly regarding the quotes from Scripture that you have sited i will say this ;
    The reference to Ezekiel “God is not a man” presents no problem for catholics because , this was written long before Christ became man .It doesn’t qualify .

    The other quotes from scripture that you have presented about Jesus being subordinate to the father ; I have also answered those too . I present Christ as a servant of his father as a human person , therefore he is beneath his Father as a slave but as God , he is Christs equal .

    Christ has two natures , human and Divine . In his humanity and as a servant he is beneath his Father but as God he is his equal . So that would explain the anomalies or apparent contradictions

    I will site Johns prologue again just in case you didn’t grasp the essence of who Jesus is

    JOHN 1:1-26
    1
    In the beginning* was the Word,

    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.a
    2
    He was in the beginning with God.
    3
    * All things came to be through him,
    and without him nothing came to be.b
    What came to be
    4
    through him was life,
    and this life was the light of the human race;c
    5
    * the light shines in the darkness,d
    and the darkness has not overcome it.
    6
    * A man named John was sent from God.e
    7
    He came for testimony,* to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.f
    8
    He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.g
    9
    The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.h
    10
    He was in the world,
    and the world came to be through him,
    but the world did not know him.
    11
    He came to what was his own,
    but his own people* did not accept him.
    12
    i But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
    13
    * j who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
    14
    And the Word became flesh*
    and made his dwelling among us,
    and we saw his glory,
    the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
    full of grace and truth.k
    15
    * John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said,l ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’”
    16
    From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace,*
    17
    because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.m
    18
    No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God,* who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.n

    Bahai’s do not believe in Christ . Except for a superficial honours they have given him , Bahai’s have their own Jesus and prefer to give him honours instead

    Christs is not in completion with himself

  35. Of course you have no explanation how or why Baha’u’llah got to Israel to be imprisoned, nor why He would give His fortunes to the poor to become penniless. Nor do you have explanations for the documented miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

    Have you ever noticed that all the exorcisms and demonic stories originate with Catholics almost exclusively, maybe its a coincidence but thats true. Thank God for skeptics societies and science which has debunked so many misrepresentations of God like Lourdes and other such trickery.

    You have no response for the growing number of Christian denominations that are now denying the Trinity notion as well. Its false doctrine as proven by the words (e.g. God is greater than I) of Jesus Himself, none of which you have ANY explanation for.

    Christianity is now outdated and impotent by internal strife and division, going far from the pure teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you must admit. Christianity is way to impotent today to change secularization and narcissism in the U.S. and Europe. Why because put very simply its outdated, the Catholic rituals are outdated and believers are falling away and not going to mass. The Churchs power has been taken away with the return of the Father, hence it is no longer relevant to the spiritual needs of modern man. Only through the Baha’i revelation can this Old World Order be changed. Keep waiting for Christ to come in clouds for every physical eye to see, in spite of the fact that the Bible warns of false prophets which if He were returning in the sky we would never need to be warned about because it would be so obvious to all. It has to be spiritual and figurative but you have no eyes to see, you are blind.

  36. You are totally ignorant of our love and devotion to Jesus. You are a liar, Baha’is definitely love Christ just as much as Baha’u’llah.

    Since Baha’u’llah and Jesus are one, so by your denial of who Baha’u’llah is, you lose Christ. William Sears, Hand of the Cause of God, who was a former Catholic, made that statement. Baha’u’llah says it in the Tablet of Ahmad. No imposter could write so many wonderful books and prayers, the Bible has so little compared to the Baha’i Sacred Writings, which are relevant and current for modernity.

  37. Postscript: the first book of the bible did not come to pass until no less than 75 after Christ died. The entire bible was assembled in no less than 200 years after His ascension. There are no original books of the bible today, sad to say. So the Baha’i Sacred Writings are all in Baha’u’llah’s own pen and are original and preserved in a vault on Mt. Carmel. This is historic, no Manifestation has accomplished that. So we have original documents to go by, this is a first in religious history.

  38. This is the Day of God, your judgment is your decision to deny Baha’u’llah. Some will be taken and some will, stubborn as they are, remain.

  39. I have answered your questions thoroughly and concisely .

    By the way , I have read all these explanations and quotes from the Bahai reference library . I find them unconvincing at best

    And i have thoroughly sited scriptural proofs for my claims too , let the readers decide for themselves

    Secondly , I couldn’t care less what Abdul Baha says . He is only trying to propagated his fathers religion and in doing so will reinterpret scriptures to fit the Bahia theology in order to sway people into believing that his Father is Jesus returned .

    I Have given solid proof for Christians belief in the literal personal return of Christ

    There are no “cycles of manifestations” . this is concept of the Bahai’s.

    Secondly Bahuallah visited Carmel by his own free will . He stayed there for 3 or 4 months by his own doing .

    Even if he was forced to go to Carmel , he still gave himself this title Bahaullah . That does not constitute his fulfilling of scripture because its opportunistic . That was within his control.

    Also There is no peace in this world as I have stated several times now It will be 200 years next year since the birth of your Christ .Have a look around you , the world is dark , but the light of the true Christ will remain in this world as he promised until his Glorious return .

    Matthew 28:17-20
    17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.d.

    Did the apostles worship Christ ?????…..they sure did . The above scripture speaks for itself

    Jesus never rebuked his apostles for worshipping him . The fact that some doubted makes no difference , because if their doubts were well founded , Christ would have rebuked his apostles . Alas he did not

    Comparing the denial of the Pharisees towards Jesus to the denial of Bahaullah is a redundant claim that has no basis in the historical facts of the matter . The reasons we deny Bahallah are very different from the reason the Pharisees rejected Christ .

    The Pharisees ultimately rejected Christ because he claimed to be God .
    We , the faithful of Christ recognise Christ as God and we worship him as did the apostles , and we have done this ever since .

    To accept the Bahaullah and subsequently the Bahai view of Christ is to once again reject him as God just as the Pharisees did and replace him with another christ .

    So lets be real about this ; Drawing on the denials of the Pharisees does not bolster the Bahai argument , rather it renders them void when you look at the broader context .

    In his Letter to the Pope Pius 9 , The Bahaullah tries to parallel this claim and predicts his demise at the hands of the Pope or his demise at the hands Christians in general . The Bahaullah believes that he will suffer death at the hands of the contemporary religious leaders just as Christ did
    “Would you crucify me once more” , he says .
    and
    “My Body longeth for the cross and my head for the thrust of the spear”

    But alas he was not and died of natural causes .

    Saying that I am Blind with no spiritual eyes to see means nothing too me , its water off a ducks back . I know who my God is.

  40. The Bahaullah and Jesus are not “one” Its only a claim that has no basis in truth when one investigates with the Spirit of Truth

    I don’t don’t deny you love Christ but you do not give Christ his proper due , whereas we do .

    As i have explained rather adequately before , if we were to accept Bahaullah , it then follows that we would adopt a version of Christ that is inferior to ours and contrary to that which is incumbent upon all human beings , and that is to worship him as our Lord God and Saviour and to accept no other than him .

    We have no recourse to accept another Jesus , we have the original and true Christ .

    It Was only a matter of time before you pull out once again “the bible is unreliable” out of your hat .

    This what Bahia’s do when there is nothing left for them to cling to .

    Firstly , if the bible is as unpredictable as you say , then Bahai’s must cease immediately from using it as proofs for their claims , end of Story .
    Secondly , the manuscript evidence actually does not support the claim that the Bible is unreliable as I stated before in a previous post .

    Daniel B Wallace is an absolute genius and i have seen one his youtube rebuttals of Bart Ehrman . He has taken Bart Ehrman to task over his book “misquoting Jesus” and I recommend that Every Christian should read his brilliant rebuttal on Bible.org under the heading ” The bible according to Bart Ehrman”

    There are numerous amounts of Christian apologists who have gladly joined forces in refuting these erroneous claims too .

  41. All you and the Catholic Church are doing is simply making claims as well–the very thing you accuse me of. You have absolutely no proof that all other Manifestations of God are not from God as you suggest.

    The Bible contains the words of God but is not without error, I find myself having to repeat endlessly to you. I don’t accept either Ehrman (who rejects the bible altogether) or Wallace (who believes its inerrant), I just say it contains the words of God and much of it is from God, as is the Koran and other Holy Books. BTW, the Catholic bible is different and has more books that the one of Wallace but I need not go into that either.

    You have ignored acknowledging the long standing intra religious conflicts of Catholic and Protestants that has gone on for centuries in Europe, you skip over the crisis in the Church of declining enrollments of nuns and priests creating a church crisis, you ignored the immoral protection of priests who have raped and molested boys from criminal prosecution by Church Bishops, and much more. Moreover, you try to argue the world is as bad now as ever, which is not true. Its a false argument because modernity is better today in alot of things. For example, we have seen a reduction in prejudices, the promotion of the equality of the sexes (in spite of sexism in the Church priesthood and hierarchy) and reductions in every ism. As a PhD I can show you plenty of proof to back that up.

    You simply are treading on thin ice, trying to promote a sinking ship. You have denied the truth of Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroaster. Zoroaster and His religion is almost of duplicate of Christianity, again lending credence to my theme of the oneness of Gods Messengers. Your arguments are shallow and without merit, plain and simple. You deny what Christ Himself clearly says about His station. He doesn’t say God and man nor try to make that distinction in His clear statement, God is greater than I. No other way to interpret that statement. Gods attributes are reflected in Him, He is a mirror of them. But He is not part of God’s essence that is crystal clear from HIS statements. Moreover, the skirt over or resist addressing the points I have tried to raise. This is a waste of my time.

  42. You have no proofs that they are from God .

    Why do you site Ehrmen if you don’t accept his testimony .

    Why don’t you tell me what errors the bible has and we will discuss them .

    Please tell me what you think Christians believe when they say the Bible is inerrant .

    In matters of faith , the bible is inerrant Dr J

    And so what if Wallace has a bible with e few less cynical books .
    What is your point ???

    My arguments are shallow and without merit . I disagree ,I have presented good arguments Dr J

    I have not ignored the inter religious division between catholic and protestant but The Bahia faith has only only added to interreligious conflict . So your view on this ” conflict ” is only inflamed by the emergence of a new religion …..yours .

    There is no credability to the belief that these men who you call messengers of God, are from God at all , because they all teach different things .

    The belief that they all did teach the same thing once upon a time is unverifiable Dr J , and all we have is your Bahaullahs word that they did , and that is not sufficient because nobody can test this claim .
    .
    You raise the Child abuse claims once again , but these criminals that have done this are not representative of the whole . they are not part of our faith

    You think the world is not bad now . As I have stated more than once , Abortion , the killing of innocent human beings , is so prevalent that this cancer in our society is responsible for more child murders than all wars combine throughout all of history . All that in 50 short years .

    What an indictment that is on our society

    Or do you consider these lives to have no real value in Scheme of things

  43. I read recently read a Bahai review of Michael Sears Book “The prophecies of Jesus”

    According to the reviewer ,one of the things that Micheal Sears states is that Jesus , in the Olivet discourse , predicted the end of christianity by the advent of Islam and then again with the Advent of Bahaism . He said that christianity was given its institutional obituary notice , not once , but twice .

    The problem with the olivet discourse is that it is does not present a clear foretelling of future vents and some of the events that were foretold could be interpreted in many ways by the “vain imaginings” of anyone trying to interpret them

    The fact that this ex catholic has interpreted these event as “obituary notices” for the church fails miserably , and heres why .

    The only clear and unambiguous prophecy Christ made of the Church is this

    MATHEW16:17-19

    …16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.…
    And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.”

    Firstly Christ blesses Peter for his great proclamation of faith , and that faith is what the church is built on , namely that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God .

    Then Christ renames Peter Kepha (rock) and its upon that Rock of Peter that Christ would build his everlasting Church

    He then bestows on Peter and subsequently all elected Popes , an authority that has universal significance . He gives this office of Peter the power to bind and loose , and decrees that these binding would be ratified in heaven .

    Christ gave this authority to a sinner ,a mere fallible man , even one that would deny him during his passion and run away . but christ gave it to Peter and his successors anyway

    No Pope , even if he had great personal imperfections and character flaws , cannot formalise any doctrine that is contrary to truth . This truth rests on the same infallible faith of St Peter .

    The Holy Spirit , the Spirit of truth , which Christ promised the apostles , came to them at Pentecost , thus giving birth to the Church that was to endure forever .

    The Spirit of truth is the safeguard against error .

    Nothing like this that has its equal in history

    Christ then proclaims that his church will endure permanently . There it is in black and white .

    Christ never promised a Church without trials , nor did he promise a church that would not make mistakes or one that would not be assailed , but he did promise that it would endure forever .

    These so called “obituary notices” are fanciful and are the construct of wild imagination .The Church that Christ did build has endured for 2000 years dispite the threat of Islam and will continue to endure until he comes to take his bride ( The church ) upon his actual return .

    The Bahaullah , in the book of certitude , tries to convince us , that the Christian “divines” have deceived men to such a degree , that when Mohammed came into the world , the Christians were incapable of recognising him .

    The Bahaullah has a festering hatred of Catholicism . This anti-Catholic bias is inflamed by his by his own biased Islamic heritage .

    Promoting a sinking ship am I !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  44. Dr J i think I need to explain again . Jesus Christ is either God or he isn’t . He cannot both be God and not God at the same time .

    The laws of noncontradiction come into play here

    John 1:1 clearly states that christ was with God ( as a distinct person ) and was God from all eternity .That means he has his essence with the Father.

    I and the Father are one

    Not only is Christ God , but he is the creator of all things .

    His apostles worshipped him . What more evidence do you need .

    You keep saying i have glossed over things and all you have done represent an argument which I have already given you the answer to .

    so please let me give it you again .

    As a human and a servant of mankind ,and a slave in his human existence Christ was subordinate to the Father because he was not in his Glory with his Father. That does not mean that he is not his equal as a Divine person of the Godhead . It just meant that he was subordinate on his humanity during his 33 years on Earth .

    I answered this question already , but I have just answered it again

  45. Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator

    1. Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
    Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

    2. Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
    Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    5. John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
    Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

    6. Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
    Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    9. Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
    Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

  46. You are so uneducated and myopic in your thinking that I find myself continually having to repeat myself to you, the very thing you accuse me of doing. BTW, anytime you want to compare our educational levels, I would be more than happy to. In brief, AGAIN, you avoid answering many of my questions, essentially anything you cannot invent an explanation for. Case in point is the documented miracles of the twin Manifestations of God–no explanation from you.

    The bible contains the words of God and has wonderful teachings (save slavery which Baha’u’llah was the first Manifestation to ban it) but it in know way compares to the Baha’i Sacred Writings in breadth or depth.

    I suggest you read the errors and actual contradictions via the research not just of Ehrman (I said clearly I don’t agree with alot of what he says but bring him up as if I side with everything he says) but another scholar among many is Carlson. Wallace is a Baptist preacher so he would not approve of Catholic bible justifications for purgatory or would he approve the additional books of the New Testament in the Catholic bible. Yet you use him as your scholar to support the Bible but he rejects Catholicism and its bible, kind of interesting contradiction I would say. See Carlsons work, which I show you because the only totally error free books are the UHJ approved translations of Baha’u’llah’s teachings. See Carlsons work on errors and contradictions of events in this link:

    Carlson.http://infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

  47. In the 7th chapter of the Book of Acts, the disciple Stephen is being stoned to death and he has a vision of the two Messiahs:

    “But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus, standing at the right hand of God;” (Acts 7:55)

    Jesus did not speak English. He spoke a Galilean dialect of Aramaic and what the bible renders as “Glory of God”, “Glory of the Lord” or “Glory of the Father”, Jesus said “Baha-u-llah”. Contrary to the current Christian teaching about the Glory of God, it is not just some nebulous spirit that emanates from God like you or the Christian clergy try to explain. For instance, they say that the Glory of God that is next to Jesus in the vision of Stephen is a spirit that comes from Jesus, as Jesus is God. But the Bible teaches otherwise:

    “And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form…Such was the likeness of the Glory of the Lord.” (Ezekiel 1:26-28)

    The “Glory of the Lord” is not a “spirit” but is a “human form” meaning a person. A person who is seated upon a throne which is the throne of David. Like Jesus, the second coming of Christ, Baha’u’llah, is a “Manifestation” of God or one who receives the thought of God directly and then reflects it to the people.The Manifestations are like pure and finely polished mirrors that reflect God to the people. They are like mirrors, because a mirror, when brought out into the sunshine of the day, is able to reflect the full image of the sun. When you look into the mirror you see everything that the sun is: the disk of the sun, the heat and the light of the sun. If the mirror were to say “I am the sun”, the mirror would be speaking the truth, and if the mirror were to say “the sun is in me”, again, the mirror would be speaking the truth. Everything that the sun is, is in the mirror and is reflected perfectly through it. Now, the sun is a million times bigger than the earth and the earth is a billion times bigger than the mirror and in no possible way does the sun shrink itself down and fit into the mirror, what you see is only a reflection of the sun. In like manner, it would be easier for the sun, being a million times bigger than the earth, to fit itself into a mirror one can hold in their hand, than the One, True, Invisible God who pervades all space and all time, to fit and incarnate Himself into a human being. Manifestations reflect God’s message to the people via the spoken word. The Manifestations are endowed with the Holy Spirit which is the complete thought of God that they then impart to the people through the spoken word or have it written down in a book. The Manifestations of God are human beings with the special capacity of being able to receive and transmit the thought of God. They are human beings, but they possess one more thing or quality which sets them apart from all others. This can be best illustrated with the example of some things from today’s technology. We have no original Bibles either Catholic or Protestant versions, but have all of the Bab’s and Baha’u’llah’s writings and with their own pens I might add.

    Our daily lives we are continuously being bombarded with thousands of invisible waves, microwaves, television waves, radio waves, etc. No matter how hard or long we may try to meditate on what these waves are saying, we will never be able to pick them up. It is only when we turn to the radio or television set, the instrument that has that special capacity to receive those waves and broadcast them, are we able to discover what those waves are saying. Again, the same is true for the Manifestation. Only the Manifestation of God has the capacity or special “equipment” to be able to receive the Holy Spirit or the complete thought of God and then broadcast it to the people. There are no competing Jesus’ what a silly and ignorant thought. The return of Christ simply is different than the reified interpretations various Christian scholars of the 38,000 varieties of Christianity believe. BTW, some believe Christ will return on earth by a new name so there is not universal interpretation or belief among Christians on how Christ will return.

    This planet needs the Manifestations of God to become aware of the presence of God. Man is a spiritual being and is in need of the education of the Spirit through contact with the Manifestations. God does not speak to us with a big megaphone in the sky, nor does He talk to us individually. The only way that God will communicate with His creation is through the Manifestations of Himself. God is an invisible, infinite essence and the only way that we can perceive of God is not in His essence, but through His Manifestation. Through the knowledge of the Manifestations, we as human beings are able to evolve and progress both physically and spiritually. The physical side of the human being is the vehicle for our spiritual side. It is the form we are in when we first come in contact with the knowledge of God. The Manifestations bring laws and ordinances to regulate our physical world and help in the creation of civilizations. Only that will cure the Protestant and Catholic wars and the decline of the older faiths in their abilities to spiritualize a secular Europe or America.

  48. I don’t particularly care if Wallace is a baptist preacher , I have a great deal of respect for many non-catholic scholars . James White , J.P Holding , Davis Wood , William Lane Craig , just to name a few . I can recognise an intelligent man when I see one .

    So I may not agree with all Wallaces theological positions , but his work in refuting Ehrman has nothing to do with his theological position and everything to do with his historical analysis and has done so with brilliant insight and sound scholarship .

    So no its not a problem for me that I reference any of these men in particular Wallace as the occasion needs . I think its more off a problem for you than me because you who sited Ehrman in first place , and for what reason you did this is still uncertain to me

    You want to compare education levels do you . I couldn’t care less weather you have multiple university degrees or not . I think you might feel a little threatened by someone you may not have all the pieces of paper to state his intelligence , but can none the less have a serious debate with you .

    I am proud of that and I wear it with pride , so if you feel threatened enough that you need to draw that card , then I am utterly pleased with my efforts . thanks for bringing that up , i appreciate it .

    YOU SAID
    The Manifestations bring laws and ordinances to regulate our physical world and help in the creation of civilizations. Only that will cure the Protestant and Catholic wars and the decline of the older faiths in their abilities to spiritualize a secular Europe or America.

    I SAY
    What protestant and catholic wars are there happening .
    As I posted earlier , the Catholic church enjoys Christ favour and has endured , just as he promised it would , despite the threats of Islam , the separation of the protestants , the rise of militant Atheism , secularism , New Christ’s , false prophets , and the list goes on and on .Contrary to the claims of Bahai’s , their own religion is just another in mix and really is nothing than the inception of another form of division .

    The Catholic church will endure forever

    YOU SAID
    “Some believe that Christ will come with a new name”

    I SAY
    Never met a single one who has ever held this view and even if they did , it proves nothing whatsoever .

    Any way , moving on :

    Not one single verse that you sited above states that Jesus “DID NOT CREATE ALL THINGS”

    You infer it only , but none of these verses states that Christ “DID NOT” create all things . None of them , not a single one .

    The most challenging one is the temptation of Christ and state

    John 1:1 utterly destroys these Bogus claims . John 1:1 clearly states that Christ is God form all eternity that he created everything

    He was worshipped by the apostles

    Dr J , I will now I will explain Jesus humanity….again

    Christ was subservient to his Father as a Human person . We understand all these verses you site , but they have no hinderance to us catholics and our belief that he is the Eternal God because we understand that Jesus came as a servant and slave and relied on his Father.

    Christ was , in his humanity only , limited in his power . but Christ could and did exercise his divine power at his will , which he did at the transfiguration and through his “Glorious Resurrection”.

    Jesus , as well as having a human nature , also had a DIVINE nature that was eternal . This is the Divine and eternal nature of Christ that created all things .

    COLOSSIANS 1:19 . The “FULLNESS” of God dwelt in him.

    This means that Christ as the creator of the universe , and as a human person had within himself the entire mysteries of God to its fullest degree .

    This christ has within himself the Essence of the Godhead .TO THE FULLEST DEGREE . Not just a reflection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Christ is not merely a reflection of God , but is his essence .

    Your so called manifestation is about as much needed in our society as there is another Christian sect . We don’t need another source of division , which is really what your faith is : another

    The bahai faith is just another division in the cycle of religion revelations .
    And Absolutely Yes there are two competing Christ’ . Not a stupid thought at all Dr J , because as I stated before you have your Messiah and I have mine . Your Bahaullah is another man , born from another woman in another time , trying to obviate the true essence Christ to some “mere manifestation” , thus reducing him to something of a decree less than he deserves .

    Your Bahaullah may not fire bullets , but the pen is mightier than the sword . Your Bahaullah has shot at the bows of the christian faith by his words .

    Your Bahaullah , has tried to usurp the “true” station of Christ for his own personal glorification .

    The so few reference that Bahai’s make of Christ in their liturgical practices , demonstrates clearly that Bahaullah has has , at least amongst the Bahai’s , succeeded in usurping christ from his true station

    Also , countrary to your utterly superficial understanding of Catholic theology , we do not believe that the glory of God is some nebulous spirit emanating from God .I have never heard any Clergy , or any other christian say that at any time .

  49. DR J YOU SITED THE FOLLOWING
    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    MY RESPONSE . Jesus isn’t the Father so he would not have stated such and its erroneous to suggest otherwise

    YOU SITED
    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    MY RESPONSE .
    Refer to my previous post regarding Christ humanity

    YOU SITED
    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    MY RESPONSE .
    Jesus received his earthly life from his Father , but his divinity is eternal with God and is not created

    YOU SITED
    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    MY RESPONSE
    No Dr J , not two beings , two persons , one Being .

    YOU SITED
    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    MY RESPONSE
    Jesus , as a distinct person of the Godhead is not trying to please himself but his Father who is also distinct person of the Godhead

    YOU SITED
    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    MY RESPONSE
    Jesus , in his humanity , did “reflect” the majesty of God , but that is not
    to say that he was not Divine
    COLOSSIANS 1:19 . The “FULLNESS” of God dwelt in him.
    It is only reflected in so far as we mere mortals can not perceive god in all his Glory . That is why Jesus is said to reflect the majesty of God , whilst at the same time has within himself the “Fullness” of God

    YOU SITED
    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    MY RESPONSE
    Jesus DID NOT say “don’t call me good” . You have misquoted this passage
    Jesus actually asks a rhetorical question “Why do you call me good , because only God is good “. Here Jesus is equating himself with God because Jesus is “the Good Shepherd” .
    Jesus said to satan , ” Do not put you Lord God to the test . Jesus here states that God can be tested which is in fact what Satan has tried to do with Christ .
    So when scripture says that God cannot be tested it actually means that God cannot be thwarted or subverted , nor surrender his will to an inferior being or cause .
    Jesus was allowed to be tempted in order that he reach perfection . This does not mean that Christ was imperfect , like us sinners , but rather he was to endure all the ravages of humanity so that he could unite himself with us in a deep and personal way .

    God , through Christ his son , is thoroughly acquainted with our suffering through and through

    YOU SITED
    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

    MY RESPONSE
    Christ did learn obedience , but that does not mean that Christ wass ever disobedient
    Christ reached perfection in the sense that he had to endure the same trials as us in order to be united with is in our struggles , so that through his perfect example , we too may endure all thing for his glory . Thats what is so great about our God , he has visited us and is acquainted with our suffering .

    So all these scriptural references , once properly understood , pose no hinderance whatsoever to our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord , God and Saviour of the entire world , past , present , and future .

  50. Nothing you have said above actually successfully answers the facts posted except in YOUR eyes, so don’t give yourself credit for sticking with a PhD Catholic58. Actually a PhD is not important in the sharing of the above and below facts that you are literally blind to in your shallow understanding of Baha’u’llah or the Bab or the Baha’i Revelation.

    I know the Church of God believes Christ will return on earth by a new name as He did the first time, which is at least one example and I know there are more, I am not prepared to do that research at this moment, since I am a full time Professor with other obligations. This church is one Christian sect who doesn’t reify scripture concerning His return in the clouds for physical eyes to see.

    I have sent you examples of Christians (e.g. Ehrman, Bishop Spong and others) who don’t reify the Resurrection story as Catholic leaders have. There are many sects who will not accept the Catholic Church’s notion of the Trinity, plain and simple. I suppose you think that the division of the Christianity into a growing number of 38,000 different varieties of belief is a sign that the Catholic Church is strong? No person in their right mind would accept that kind of delusional thinking. Here is your cold shower: The Catholic Church, unlike the Baha’i Faith, is not growing but is rapidly losing its followers. The Catholic Church, in the mind of any fair theologian, is not going to be revived to the point of changing secularization. The trends toward the Protestant Reformation (a term well put) are simply increasing not decreasing, watering down the Catholic influence in Europe and elsewhere. Instead, Catholicism IS losing numbers to evangelical Christian groups everywhere (e.g. S. America, Africa and so forth). This trend is likely to continue in this century. Although it doesn’t take people off its rolls, the Catholic Church’s reason for its lack of appeal is obvious, its rituals are becoming less fulfilling to a growing literate and educated global population. Moreover, fewer and fewer people are wanting to be celibate clerics or nuns. When Baha’u’llah declared the equality of men and women and the elimination of clergy, when He warned the Pope to sell his gold and go out into the world, He set the stage for the democratization of religion. After that declaration, a gradual trend of democratiztion and laity empowerment has taken over the Catholic Church from handing out communion to less and less functions of priests. Its this way in all sects of Christianity, thanks to His coming to this planet and the democratization of religion.

    Moreover, you can neither answer or deny the Church hierarchy having a sin covering eye to church priests molesting and raping children or youth on a fairly wide scale. This is a fact that even the Pope is troubled by and one that I myself experienced. I know boys who as men committed suicide as the result of being sexual victims of Father Jensen and his priest friends who sexually abused them. This was a huge problem not only in Iowa where I grew up but also when I was at a University in Louisiana. Bishops protecting sex addict priests from criminal prosecution. The U.S. news have a ton of stories about this and the Pope himself is terribly concerned about how to stop it. Yet he hasn’t apologized to the thousands of victims to my knowledge and agreed to come up with a plan to stop these sex offenders. Yes, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and other world faiths that persist, the Catholic Church will persist for a long time as they have. However, the mountain of evidence of its lack of social impact (e.g. secularization of Italy and Europe) and its decline in enrollments you cannot deny. The Baha’i Faith has persisted and grown in spite of your efforts to sabotage it, with such a hateful website as this.

    Finally, you have no explanation for the chronicled miracles of both the Bab (Herald of the Baha’u’llah) and Baha’u’llah, so you avoid any answers, well done. I am finding this entire discussion redundant, you don’t answer questions or skirt around them and the answers you do give are hardly convincing for any fair minded thinker.

  51. Firstly , the church is not a Christian sect amounts many , it is the Church that christ himself established . All other christian denominations are sects.
    .
    The Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ and has endured to this very day united under the Papacy .

    Your view that christians are losing numbers due to its rituals is probably one the inventive claims i have ever heard

    So what if the cutch is losing somer followers , many of them are christian in name only , and quite frankly we would be better off without part time christians .

    The church however , though losing number due secularism in the west is going massively in Africa and South America . In fact the number of christians worldwide is growing . So your claims about christians losing numbers does not tell the whole picture .

    Your assertion that catholics are losing numbers to evangelical sis also misleading , there is a new wave of evangelicals and many other wh are comng home to the catholic church .

    Secularism is the cause of decline in Europes religious numbers , it has nothing to do with the content of religious teaching . You are making a false equivalence here that somehow this ids the demise of christianity .

    Please don’t talk to me about the miracles of the Bab , you blatantly rejected the Miracle at Fatima , called Lucia delusional , then you have the audacity to talk about miracles . I never once rejected the claims of Bahuallah’s miracles , or the Bab’s . I only ever asked you if Bahaullah performed any , I never disagreed about the truth of them

    The Bodily resurrection is not some myth invented by catholic leaders my friend , it is scriptural , and Christ himself that he would raise his body in three days . .

    The Apostles testify to this fact too

    Luke , after collaborating with eyewitness , many of which where the apostles themselves , testifies through these witnesses that Christ ate with them and even stated that he had flesh and bones , post resurrection .

    Christ is alive , and he himself will return . Christ will return just as he left , just as the scripture state . The self same Jesus

    Yours and Spongs position on the resurrection is flawed and false .

    Once again , you raise the the point of child molestation as though it was “the sin of the Church” This , along with every other statement you have made about the church is a gross overrepresentation .
    You even called them “mass crimes” in an earlier post .

    I am deeply saddened by the effect of child abuse too ,as is every normal sane person , and these men that have committed these heinous offences have a great deal to answer for . I have never once dismissed these acts , so please go back and re-read my earlier post . But i am not naive enough to believe , as you do , that these actions by these men are representative of the church as a whole because they are not , and for you to suggest otherwise is demonstrably false .

    Whilst I may concede that there were bishops that did not act prudently in these matters , that is quite different from stating that the Pope or any of the bishops , HID , LIED ABOUT , or PERJED .

    Sweeping these problems under carpet , as some bishops may have done , is not the same as hiding priests from prosecution or lying about their deeds to police , or lying in court , which , as far as i am aware , no bishop has been prosecuted for .

    If any have , then they deserve the to brought before the full weight of the law .

    We just need to put this into perspective and see it for what it is and not misrepresent them as “MASS CRIMES” or incorrectly label this as a “sin of the church” , which it is not the case

    when these priest commits these abhorrent acts they inflict a wound so terrible on their victims that nobody could imagine . They wound the church too by bringing their priestly office into disrepute , and they wound very other catholic too .

    But just as some teachers have committed acts of child abuse , we don’t label the education system as corrupt . so lets not bring down the whole church because of a few .

    Your comment about the “lack of social impact” the church has in world is also demonstrably false .

    About your claims Dr J of social irrelevance I will state the following :

    The catholic church does more for those in need around the world with its innumerable charities than any other organisation , bar none . In my diocese alone the church has ministries that house people who would otherwise be homeless , feeds people who would otherwise starve , clothe people who are financially stricken ,offers professional counselling to those affected by drug addiction and other addictions too , cares for people in their dying day through palliative care . The catholic church in may home town has been granted by our state government to oversee there running of a brand new hospital .

    That was granted because that state government recognised the great contribution the church has made in providing health care through its own private hospitals .

    we have a catholic university ,that educating our future nurses , doctors , councellors , just to name a few

    There is also a ministry that has a facility for woman who are pregnant and struggling financially . This facility teaches these women about the dignity and gift of motherhood of there unborn children . All this in a world that is stricken with the gravest evil in the history of the world , ABORTION

    I , myself have been the recipient of this beautiful charity of the catholic church . I too was addicted to drugs for many years , and it was only through a local catholic ministry , run by a catholic priest , that I first saw that I had hope .

    I ultimately went to France where I stayed in a Catholic run community , where I finally broke free from addiction . This ministry is located all across Europe and in there are houses in America , Britain , Ireland and south America . These houses have given thousands of people hope and freedom from drug abuse .

    I could go on forever about the plentitude of Catholic charities , which have sustained our societies our the centuries

    So much for claim of catholic social irrelevance . A truly fantastically false claim.

    God bless to you Dr J , I truly wish you all the best for you in life . may the lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family

    I gladly await your next comment.

  52. just to clarify your comment .

    YOU SAID:
    “Nothing you have said above actually successfully answers the facts posted except in YOUR eyes”

    MY RESPONSE :
    Actually Dr J , I have successfully answers your claims . These are not just through my eyes , but come through the SPIRIT of TRUTH , the HOLY SPIRIT.

    I agree my friend , let those who read these posts be the ultimate judge.

    I agree that Phd’s are not important . Truth is ultimately whats important .

  53. Lets get this straight. You are the one with a website dedicated to discrediting the Baha’i Faith and supporting your own unfortunate apostasy from the Baha’i Revelation. As an ex Catholic I have no such websites, nor do I intend to. I don’t have to build up a weak ego by attacking Catholicism as you have chosen to do against the Baha’i Faith.

    Yes, i have tried my best to point out why the Catholic Church and the endless sects and denominations of Christendom needed Muhammad to bring back Monotheism to counter the Trinity false doctrine and to jump start what we know as nationhood. We know that the Bab and Baha’u’llah came to bring the three oneness and unity to the world, to a secular humanity which has fallen away from older faiths influences, even the country of Italy itself. Part of my argument for the collapse of the Old World Order necessitates that I show the corruption and decay of institutions. So I need to criticize some of the Catholic practices that have been public. For example, the immoral protection of bad priests by Bishops, a practice you sugar coat when you know full well there is a ton of evidence that such things have occurred on a grand scale and yes they had full knowledge of these priests behaviors. Shame on you for your sugar coating of this knowledge Bishops had, your diluting of it doesn’t make it any less immoral. Yes there is a crisis in the Church for needing clergy and nuns, no matter what you say. Yes, Church attendance has declined and people are moving toward secularism or fundamentalist churches (cf. the book Why Conservative Churches are Growing).

    Credentials are important, otherwise why earn them, they indicate a persons ability to conduct research and employ objective scholarship. But you say PhDs don’t matter, ok, fair enough you know best!

    You entire deal is to drive your self doubts and shame away by a destructive use of your anger, trying to attack the Baha’i Faith. No you haven’t earned a PhD so you discredit those who have, that makes sense.

    FACT: You are a recovering addict who wants to attack the Baha’i Faith through this website and prove to yourself that your apostasy was the right decision. I am here to tell you it was a terrible decision. BTW, Baha’u’llah’s fruits are proof of that credentials matter. You have no explanation for His miracles and don’t even try to compare the so-called miracles of Lourdes with a Manifestation of God’s miracles, that is bad logic.

    So your argument is that none of the 38,000 Christian sects or the Protestant Reformation Churches had any legitimate gripes against the corruption of clerics and the papacy in the Catholic Church? That the entire Protestant Reformation had no basis for their breaking away from the Church and the continual divisions that are happening today? You want us to believe that all the divisions within Christianity are actually a sign that the Catholic Church is strong as ever, no worries, your logic is perfectly sound.

  54. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Catholic_Church

    Of course you will dismiss every single one of these numerous historic and well founded complaints against the Papacy and Church. You think there are no reasons for the continual schisms of Christianity into sects, cults and denominations. So there are no facts you are willing to deal with other than the fantasy about a Church from a bygone Era that has a blood stained and tainted history. From your twisted view, all the divisions of Christianity show the Catholic Church’s strength and endurance, you got to be kidding, right? You are also willing to be an apologist who sugar coats Bishops and Popes lack of legal actions against child molesting priests as relatively sinless behavior, how you conjure that fantasy up is beyond me. You have a trumped up excuses for everything that has contributed to the gradual decay of the Catholic Church but want to continue to TRY (ultimately time will prove your actions as totally meaningless) to discredit The Glory of God and the Baha’i Revelation, for that I pray for your soul. The Baha’i Faith will live and thrive in spite of apostasy and false teaching of websites like this that is your handiwork and can only be called, satanic and despicable.

  55. BTW, what you called the “holy spirit” that drives you is actually the “satanic self” which recovering addicts need to continually be aware of. Addicts who are truly recovering (its a process not an event) seek counseling, therapy and/or treatment to keep their persistent egos at bay, otherwise that satanic self ventures out into such terrible projects as this website is. I will say out of love for you as lovers of God, Jesus and Baha’u’llah, personal will power doesn’t work in controlling the satanic self. Truthfully, only your submission to a 12 Step Program in which you continually work your steps to understand what the 12 Step Programs demand of addicts in recovery, that is they should “live and let live” (which you cannot and will not do). You refuse to live and let live with your former faith. So the process of recoveringggggggggggg involves taking a continual self inventory to control your satanic impulses. These impulses arise in addicts where they have a neurotic need to buttress their weak egos and contrive excuses for their bad decisions (of what amounts to apostasy) by the constructing terrible blogs that attack other persons religions.

  56. DR J , That’s the pot calling the kettle black .

    The only satanic forces here come from you and your founder . You label this website as a “TERRIBLE PROJECT” .

    Please don’t venture to correlate Jesus with Bahaulla because these two people have nothing in common .

    Both you and The Bahai faith have grossly misrepresented Christianity and I have demonstrated this quite succinctly

    Your personal insults belie the real satanic force which underpins your faith system

    In fact , I find that your personal insults actually vindicate my position especially when a person has to resort to such banal , immature actions such as these .

    Is this your idea of Justice

  57. Dr J once again , you misrepresent Christianity and Christ .

    Just like Mohammed did .

    Christianity is a monotheistic religion , so for you to say otherwise is patently false .

    “The tree is known but its fruit”

    We believe in ONE God , not three Gods as Mohammed thought we believed

    Here is a verse from Surah 5:72-76:

    “They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say:
    Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God.

    Notice how Mohammed misrepresents the Christian view of the Trinity .

    WE don’t believe in three Gods

    WE believe in ONE God , who is ONE in essence having three divine persons all sharing this one essence .

    For more on this please visit this link
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm

    There is more

    The Quran also teaches that Christ was never crucified

    S. 4:157-158:

    “And because of their (the Jews) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger- they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.”

    If you want to defend Mohammed , then lets talk about these Satanic inspired fabrications of his in the Quran

    I have much much more to discuss on this topic too . So I am pleased to enter into a dialogue with you on this

  58. YOU SAID :
    Shame on me for sugar coating priests that molested Children

    MY RESP{ONSE :
    Shame on you Dr J for saying that I sugarcoated these abominable crimes .

    HERE IS WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID
    I am deeply saddened by the effect of child abuse too ,as is every normal sane person , and these men that have committed these heinous offences have a great deal to answer for .

    Why would you say that Dr J . you now engaging in Character assassination by asserting that I am sugarcoating these crimes

    SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME on you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is a common theme of your posts ; that you misrepresent everything .

    It is not me that has sugarcoated anything , but once again you are misrepresenting me and faith because of the actions of a few .

    We do recognise that abhorrent crimes of child molestation , but as i said before , these people are NOT representative of the whole

    For you to suggest otherwise is a gross misrepresentation of the truth in order for you to justify you position

    You are demonising the good Character of the many great priest and religious we have .

    All you really have is this argument .

    I have answered all of your objections

    Let the readers decide

  59. Oddly enough you accuse me or others who dare to challenge YOUR anti Baha’i (and anti non Christian world religions)website as being hateful or satanic, you got to be kidding, right? This anti Baha’i Blog is built with YOUR hands. Only you are responsible for this hateful site whose sole purpose is attacking and demeaning Baha’i Theology.. I think that it is kind of ironic you accuse others of being hateful but I don’t have any ex Catholic Baha’i website or blog like you do. I have not and would not construct a website to demonize Catholicism, so we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Yes I did point out in some of my posts the gradual destruction of the Old World Order and its religious institutions–including examples of corruption that is historic and on a fairly large scale in Catholicism. Any fair and impartial reader knows I did not and would generalize to all priests as being bad, that is your addict talking inside you. There are many wonderful and dedicated priests, some who have found Baha’u’llah and converted to the Baha’i Faith as well. So in order to counter your attacks and put downs of Baha’i teachings and theology, I pointed out the general decay and decline of the Catholic Faith since Medieval times. It really reached its zenith prior to Muhammad coming to bring God’s revelation some six hundreds years after Jesus.

    I don’t believe for one minute you were ever a Baha’i except in name, your posts indicate a paucity of depth of faith, conviction, knowledge and certainly many of your comments misrepresent the Faith. You became Catholic as a recovering addict who got help from a Catholic charitable organization but a true recovering addict doesn’t have to go out to attack his former Faith, which means I find it hard to believe you are sober.

    In brief, the full truth will be revealed to you someday but your arrogance will not allow you to understand it at this time. You are an angry person, and when your ideas are dismissed or challenged you react in spiteful and hateful ways, as shown by your words above, toward Baha’i’s. I find it VERY desrespectful of my faith when a former Baha’i who knows full well how to spell Baha’u’llah’s name correctly, purposely doesn’t. FYI, that is not only an insult to me as a Baha’i but something God surely WILL make you see in the next world. I am done with you and your satanic site, I will leave you to your own selfish and hateful self.

  60. Just to clarify a few things you have just said .

    You said once again “Corruption of a fairly large scale” !!!!!!!!!!!!

    There you go again , more gross generalisations and misrepresentations .

    Some catholic priests have converted to Bahai have they .

    How many would that be Dr J ??????????

    Dr J , you keep rehashing the same thing that I have already rebutted .

    Your are so beat that you now have to resort to attacking me personally

    And you have the audacity to question my integrity .

    You talk about being insulted when all you have done is misrepresent the catholic faith at every turn .

    You are now playing the victim which is quite laughable considering the misrepresentations you have made .

    The Bahai faith is not a friendly unifying faith . It is utterly bent on discrediting the catholic church at any cost , regardless of whether the claims are true or not .

  61. So you dismiss the entire Protestant Reformation and the continual divisions of Christianity as having no basis for their protests against Catholic practices or beliefs? Such thinking would be funny if it weren’t so sad!

    You think that the 38,000 divisions of Christianity will someday come back into the Catholic Faith? You believe that the Catholic Faith is growing in more in converts than in people leaving, not according to fair and impartial journal articles I am reading.

    You dismiss the message of the oneness of God of Muhammad and now are Islamophobic. I asked Google what is the fastest growing religion in the world and unlike your claims it says: “Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and is expected to outstrip Christianity by the end of the century. The number of Muslims will grow more than twice as fast as the world’s population from now until 2050, the Pew Research Center has said. In 2010, Muslims made up 23.2 per cent of the global population.Dec 10, 2015″

    I could provide for you countless non Baha’i leaders, dignitaries and religious figures who, unlike your hateful approach, have nothing but praise for the Baha’i Faith. You think all the devout and loving followers of all the Manifestations of God outside of Jesus, whether they believe in Jesus or not, will go to Hell because they are not Christians or Catholic. You offer no explanation for objective newspapers reporting Bishops knowingly protecting bad priests.

    You think that all the inventions bringing the world together since 1844, more than that short time span, than all in all recorded history combined, was for no reason.

    All addicts who are not working their 12 step programs cannot and will not live and let live as the programs demands of them. So your goal is to prove to yourself that your apostasy was a good decision. Yet as Baha’u’llah reminds us: ” O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.(The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 5). Finally, He tells us that He was with God at the beginning of existence, just like all the Manifestations of God were: “O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty. (The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 3). He has revealed His beauty to you, but you are blind, with no eyes to see Him. I will keep you in my prayers.

  62. You keep bringing up this issue of Bishops that have knowing protected or lied or hid priests from prosecution. If thats true then they deserve to be prosecuted . But unless you have proof of this then leave it to the authorities my friend . If you don’t have proof then you cannot making ja knowledge claim to the contrary . That is wrong for you to do that

    If I am blind to the Bahaullah , then surely you too then are blind to Christ . I haven’t apostatised my friend because I was never a Bahai to begin with . I haven’t abandoned my Lord for another as you have .

    You call me an Islamaphobe , but have laid outrageous claims against the catholic church , So according to your own logic that makes you a Catholiphobe

    But I do respect Bahai’s because my own wife is a Bahai , and I do respect Muslims ; my in laws are Muslim too
    If you actually knew me Dr J you would see that I have defended Muslims against Islamophobes on my own Facebook timeline .
    I did this even against my own brother who was posting hateful things about Islam .

    My friends cover a very broad base of people from all diverse backgrounds . We all get along very well an enjoy each others company

    But that doesn’t mean that I believe what they believe or accept the opinions of Mohammed or Bahaullah . I can respect the peoples of religion without accepting what they believe or resorting to gross generalisations false assertions as you have

    So just because I don’t believe the teachings of Bahaullah doesn’t mean that i don’t respect Bahai’s or Muslims

    Just to put you straight on something . I am not a recovering addict . , I am a recovered addict , and its low stoop foe you to try and use this a means to try and discredit me .

    I make no vows to a twelve step programme . I found my freedom through the community which assisted me through means other than a twelve step programme

    You are making a false assumption that I ought to somehow adhere to the steps of this programme

    Again this shows your desperation .

    So to clarify a few more things you have said

    The Bahuallah is NOT God , and therefore he created nobody and nothing . This is a huge contradiction in the Bahai faith that is irreconcilablele with reason .

    Only God can create Dr J . Not Moses , Abraham , Mohammed etc .

    And yes I dismiss the entire reformation because the central tenets of the reformation are false i.e. , Justification by faith alone and sola scriptura . These false doctrines are the fruits of the reformation .

    I will be happy to discuss with you at length regarding these issues so that to you might actually understand what the reformation is and what protestantism teaches , as apposed to what you think you know about protestantism .

    So yes the reformation is a farce and its 38,000 demonisation are testimony to its fruits

    And yes the catholic church still remains in tact in spite of the false prophets like Mohammed whose religion tried unsuccessfully to wipe out christianity The catholic church survives , by the Grace of God and the intercession of Mary in spite of the powers that try and try again to undermine her .

    She will endure to the end just as Christ promised and contrary to the interpretations of Michael Sears and his very imaginative interpretations oof the olivet discourse

    So Quoting Bahaullahs words does nothing to inspire me . I find many of the things he said to be either false or misleading

    For example , Bahuallah is teaching you a contra biblical doctrine with regards to Pre-existence .

    Jesus clearly stated that he pre-existed Abraham

    JOHN 8:58
    “before Abraham was , I AM”.

    The Jews immediately went to stone Christ after saying this . Even his enemies knew exactly what he saying , namely that he was the pre-existed Abraham and made himself God with the term I AM . It follows logically then that Abraham himself is not a pre-existent manifestation which is totally at odds with Bahaullahs claims

    I will finish up by saying this . I immerse myself in the Love of Christ and I am eternally grateful for his once and for all sacrifice , I need no-one but him for my salvation .

    JOHN 14:8
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    I have the love of the true Christ , and not someone who thinks he is Christ . This is a surety of salvation which only comes from Christ’s redemption bought for us on the cross . That salvation coupled with the powerful intercession of his most Holy Mother Mary are basically all I need

    Again , I won’t be downgrading or trading in Jesus for a replacement one as you have .

    And I will also pray for Dr J , and I would never ever condemn you or someone to hell for their beliefs and my church doesn’t either .

    O ye beloved of the Lord ! In the sacred Dispensation , conflict and content are in wise permitted . Every aggressor , deprived himself of Gods grace . Abdul Baha

    Nothing whatever can , in this Day , inflict a greater harm upon this Cause than dissension and strife , contention , estrangement and apathy , among the Loved ones of God .Baha’u’llah

    May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and may the light of the Holy Spirit guide you in all your ways

  63. I thought you said you were a former Baha’i, then that even makes more sense you have never enjoyed on any wide scale the fruits (works, writings) of Baha’u’llah, other than trying to disprove your wifes religion. You don’t have the spirit that comes through His revealed word. The Manifestation speaks both as a mirror or reflection of God and though His mouth as God. Yes, please pray for me, as I will for you. What you are doing with this site is wrong and is a terrible sin, that I know for sure. No one with the love of Christ would misspell the names of other peoples Manifestations of God, supposedly especially his own wife’s religion out of hate of that religion. I have helped addicts and those who cannot practice the saying, live and let live, spend their time with destructive attacks against others instead of time practicing what the beloved Jesus taught us, love of others and tolerance toward those that do not believe what we believe. The following fully explains why Christ says before Abraham He was. As an Intermediary between God and humankind, He speaks as God on many occasions like this, so does Baha’u’llah.

    ANY RELIGIOUS SYSTEM takes positions on God’s relation to the world. Has the world always existed, or did God bring it into existence at a particular point in time? Is God the same as the world or other than it? If He is other than it, does He incarnate Himself in it or unite Himself with any part of it? The Bahá’í Faith also holds views on all these issues, and these views have a bearing upon our understanding of the concept of the manifestation of God. As for the first question, Bahá’u’lláh asserts that the universe has always existed, and that it has always depended upon God for its existence. In order better to understand his statements on this matter, it will be necessary to review briefly the background of this question in Islamic thought.

    The equation of preexistence with divinity led the Mu’tazilis to reject the idea (originating in Aristotle’s philosophy) that the universe has always existed, since that would make matter itself a second God in their eyes. They therefore argued for the creation of the universe from nothing at a particular point in time.

    For the Mu’tazilis, all things were either preexistent or originated. Either they had a beginning or they did not. However, later Islamic thinkers introduced a more complex analysis. In particular, Avicenna (980-1017 AD) made a seminal contribution to this debate. Avicenna, like many other Muslim philosophers. not only accepted the authority of Aristotle, but simultaneously based himself on the Enneads of Plotinus. Indeed, medieval Muslims thought the Enneads to be the work of the Macedonian sage, since they existed only in an anthology with the misleading title, Theology of Aristotle. The Enneads asserted that the universe is co-eternal with God, and has always been emanated by Him. Avicenna accepted this Neoplatonist position, but tried to make a clear distinction between God and the creation by isolating two types of preexistence: temporal and essential. These two categories, he said, also apply to origination.

    In Avicenna’s view, origination in time is serial in nature, characterized by a “before” and an “after” that cannot exist at the same time. However, essential origination does not necessarily occur in time. Something which is essentially originated from something else could nevertheless be simultaneous with it, since for something to be essentially originated means simply that it has a cause. For instance, if God has always been emanating the matter of the universe, both God and the universe would be preexistent in regard to time. But, Avicenna wrote, they would not both be essentially preexistent, since God is “prior” to the universe from the point of view of causation.

    It is important for Bahá’í theology that Bahá’u’lláh affirmed Avicenna’s solution to the problem of the co-eternity of the universe with God. In his Tablet of Wisdom (Lawh-i hikmat; c. 1874), Bahá’u’lláh explained that when the holy books (the Bible and the Qur’an) speak of the creation of the universe in time, they are alluding in symbolic fashion to the essential preexistence of God and the essential origination of the material universe. However, Bahá’u’lláh continues, this does not prevent the universe from being co-eternal with God and sharing with Him in temporal preexistence. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá later expanded on the Avicennian schema in this regard.[17]

    Only God is essentially preexistent, which means that He is not preceded by a cause. What Aristotle called, the Unmoved Mover. God is not divided into three, He IS indivisible, the notion of the trinity was the Churchs first mistake that was fully corrected with the Revelation of the Koran.

    God, the Word of God, and the matter out of which the universe is formed are all temporally preexistent. They have always existed.

    The Word of God, universal matter, and composite creatures (e.g. an individual human being) are all essentially originated, since they are preceded by a cause.

    Composite creatures—a tree, or a planet—are originated in time. There was a time when they did not exist. This is not true of the Word of God, nor of universal matter.

    The doctrines of emanation and the co-eternity of the universe with God have often been linked to monism. However, Bahá’í scriptures avoid such doctrines by maintaining an absolute distinction between God and his emanated creatures. In his Haft Vadi (The Seven Valleys), Bahá’u’lláh wrote that the spiritual seeker might pass through a stage wherein he believes the being of the created world to be the same as God’s being.[18] This doctrine of the unity of being (wahdat al-wujud) was propounded by many great medieval Muslim mystics, such as Muhyi’d-Din Ibn ‘Arabi (d. 1240 AD) and ‘Abdu’l-Karim al-Jili (d. 1428 AD). However, most Shi’i thinkers rejected this doctrine. An important refutation of this view entitled Ayn al-Yaqin (The Eve of Certainty) was written by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa’i (d. 1826 AD), the founder of the Shaykhi school of Shi’ism, and whom the Bábí and Bahá’í religions claim as a herald.

    Bahá’u’lláh stated in The Seven Valleys that the true seeker will pass beyond such limited notions as monism. Bahá’u’lláh seems to have viewed the Sufi doctrine of the unity of being as the natural result of thinking on a certain spiritual level, and as a set of propositions which make sense on that level. However, when set in the context of higher levels of truth, monism is shown to be inadequate and will be abandoned by the more advanced treader of the mystic path. It is therefore obviously inaccurate to speak, as some Western observers have, of the Bahá’í Faith as pantheistic.

    Bahá’u’lláh further denies the possibility that God could become incarnate (hulul) and that the worlds of God could descend into the grades of the creatures. In his major theological work, The Book of Certitude (Kitab-i Iqan, 1862), Bahá’u’lláh writes:
    To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence [zuhur va buruz], ascent and descent, egress and regress.
    In denying that God manifests Himself as a corporeal being, Bahá’u’lláh makes an important distinction between the Bahá’í concept of manifestation and that of the extremist Shi’is. Some of these latter believed that God in his essence could become fully manifest in a human being. For Bahá’u’lláh, however, the essence of God is absolutely transcendent and is not manifested in the contingent world. Since Baha’u’llah and Jesus are one, the same applies to Jesus.

    The Word of God serves as the metaphysical link between this unknowable essence of God and the material world for Bahá’u’lláh. This doctrine of the Word of God, or Logos, has as its background much of Greek, Hellenistic and Islamic philosophy and mysticism, including the Gospel of John (1:1-18). As in John, Bahá’u’lláh teaches in his Tablet of Wisdom that the Word of God (kalimatu’lláh, kalamu’lláh) is the instrument whereby the universe was brought into being. It is the cause of the entire creation, imperceptible to the senses, consisting neither of nature nor of substance, and is identical to the Command (amr) of God. Here we should remember that the Qur’an also affirmed the existence of the Word of God, and identified it especially as a title of Jesus. This is perhaps because Jesus symbolized in the Qur’an the creative Word of God, wherein God simply says “Be!” and it is (Qur’an 19:16).

    In the Tablet of Wisdom, Bahá’u’lláh uses the phrases “the Word of God” and “the Speech of God” interchangeably. As we have seen, in Islam God’s Speech is a divine attribute. But as we mentioned above in the discussion of the controversy over the uncreated Qur’an, Shi’i theologians like Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa’i asserted that it is an active rather than an essential attribute. The Shi’is, as well as the Bahá’ís, see the Speech of God as an action which does not inhere in the essence of God: Since a cause “precedes” this action, it is in the Bahá’í view originated, even though it preexists the cosmos by being outside of time.

    Another synonym for the Word of God is the Book. Revealed scripture is therefore a manifestation in this world of God’s creative speech. But according to Bahá’u’lláh, this verbal or written revelation proceeds from the human incarnation of the Word of God. In the Tablet of Ashraf (c. 1865-66), Bahá’u’lláh states that “the Book of God hath been sent down in the form of this Youth.” In Arabic, the statement says literally that the Book of God has “manifested itself in the temple of this Youth.”[26] A similar verse appears in a tablet revealed two or three years later. In the beginning of the Suratu’r-Ra’ is (Tablet of the Leader; August, 1868), addressed to the Ottoman First Minister Mehmet Emin Ali Pasa (1815-1871), Bahá’u’lláh wrote that the world had been set ablaze by the Word of the Lord, the Most Glorious. It is, He continued, more ethereal than the wafting of the breeze, and has become manifest in human form. This Word, or Speech of God, through which God created the universe therefore manifests itself in human form upon the planet earth from time to time. Bahá’í theology considers all past prophets and founders of true religions manifestations of this Logos principle.

    Since God creates the cosmos by the Logos, it is not simply a creature among other creatures. It exists on a higher order of being than the world of creation (‘alam al-khalq), in the realm of God’s Command (‘alam al-amr). Human beings find even the manifestation of the Word of God in this world incomprehensible, since that which it manifests lies beyond mortal understanding. Addressing God, Bahá’u’lláh writes that “every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Human beings, therefore, find both God and his Word unknowable. The separate realms of Divinity, Command and Creation cannot penetrate each other on the level of essence. At the lowest level, that of creation, the only possible knowledge of God derives from a knowledge of his signs (sing. ayah). In his commentary on the oral report attributed to the Prophet Muhammad, “Whoever knows himself knows his Lord,” Bahá’u’lláh explains:

    He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation.

    Here, he explains the sign of God as a reflection of his attributes, a reflection which is latent and which is deposited (vadi’ih) within each created thing.

    In another tablet on the same theme, Bahá’u’lláh explains:
    Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man bath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.
    This theme, that each created thing is a sign of one of God’s attributes, permeates the entire corpus of Bahá’u’lláh’s revelation. This might be called the doctrine of “General Revelation,” which teaches that God is revealed in his creation by virtue of his effulgence (tajalli) therein. This is not an effulgence of his essence, as some mystics taught, but rather an effulgence of his active qualities or perfections. Bahá’u’lláh stresses that the sign of God within each creature is only potentially manifest. In the case of human beings, they can choose to fulfill their potentialities by becoming more perfect and bringing to fruition the names and attributes deposited within them, or they can choose not to do so.

    To summarize, Bahá’í scriptures teach that God is sanctified above having distinct essential attributes and is holy above all names. All that human beings can know of Him is that He exists, and that He is not subject to the imperfections inherent in finitude, createdness and contingency. Therefore, we find it appropriate to apply to God those attributes of perfection which we see in our own world of creation, not because these in any way adequately describe God, but as a means of expressing our conviction that He has no imperfections. This attribution of qualities of perfection to God also helps individuals on their own spiritual path. By concentrating upon human perfections in worshipping God, we come to know what is best in ourselves, and begin to develop our own potentialities. Bahá’u’lláh writes:
    Far, far from Thy glory be what mortal man can affirm of Thee, or attribute unto Thee, or the praise with which he can glorify Thee! Whatever duty Thou hast prescribed unto Thy servants of extolling to the utmost Thy majesty and glory is but a token of Thy grace unto them, that they may be enabled to ascend unto the station conferred upon their own in-most being, the station of the knowledge of their own selves. When we speak of God in anthropomorphic terms, when we praise Him with merely human perfections, we are actually making a false analogy, since God and humankind have absolutely nothing in common.

    Salvation in the Bahá’í Faith depends upon the acquisition of the divine attributes which the manifestation of God shows forth. Bahá’u’lláh explains that:

    in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence, Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men…

    The manifestation of God, therefore, performs a primarily didactic function. What distinguishes him from other human beings is his perfection. Just as mankind as a species is “the noblest and most perfect of all created things,” and excels all other creatures in the intensity of the revelation of the names and attributes of God within it, so the prophet is “the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent” of human beings. By demonstrating the full potentialities of human development for his age, the manifestation of God acts as an exemplar and as a teacher for the rest of humanity in its search for self-fulfillment.

  64. Dr. Cole says: THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD IN THE BAHÁ’Í WRITINGS

    THE C0NCEPT of the manifestation of the names and attributes of God is, however, much more central to the Bábí and Bahá’í scriptures than it ever was to any Twelver Shi’ite thinker. The Báb, on the other hand, often referred to the “Manifestation of the Self of God.” In his commentary on the report front the Prophet Muhammad that “Whoever knoweth himself knoweth his Lord,” Bahá’u’lláh explains that the preexistent essence of God is exalted above the knowledge of anyone other than Himself, and therefore the report was referring to the need for a knowledge of the Self of God, which is, to say, the manifestation of the names and attributes of the Deity. In his Ode of the Dove, Bahá’u’lláh refers to the Self of God (nafs-i rahmaniyyih) as having been “consigned to human form” (muvadda’ih) in the person of Moses. In the Jawahir al-Asrar (Gems of the Mysteries, c. 1861), Bahá’u’lláh several times refers to the “Manifestation of the Self of God.”[72] Speaking of the Báb, Bahá’u’lláh says that God manifested the Báb in the station of Himself. Bahá’u’lláh writes at the beginning of The Most Holy Book:

    The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead [literally: “His Self”] in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation.

    The Self of God therefore seems to refer to the totality of God’s active attributes, of which the prophets and messengers are manifestations. Whether this concept of the Self of God is related to the Neoplatonic idea of the Universal Self or Soul is difficult to determine at this point.
    The “manifestation of the names and attributes of God” becomes so powerful a description of the prophet in the Bábí and Bahá’í writings that it eclipses such terms as “prophet” and “messenger.” Bahá’u’lláh explains in the Jawahir al-asrar that God closed the cycle of prophecy with the Prophet Muhammad, as it says in the Qur’an, “Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets; God has knowledge of everything.” (Qur’an 33:40). The implication is that the prophet, and the messenger, was a more primitive form of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. With the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, in the Bahá’í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like “prophet” and “messenger” have been transcended.

    Bahá’u’lláh, like the Báb before him, states that the Qur’an foretold this fuller manifestation of the attributes of God in its teaching that on the Judgment Day the believers will attain the Presence of God (liqa’u’lláh). In The Book of Certitude, Bahá’u’lláh provides an extended commentary on the relevant verses of the Qur’an (29:23: 18:110; 13:2; 2:46; 2:49). He writes, “the highest and most excelling grace bestowed upon men is the grace of “attaining unto the Presence of God” and of His recognition, which has been promised unto all people.”

    Bahá’u’lláh discusses three possible meanings for this phrase. The first is an interpretation which asserts that at the Resurrection, there will be a “general effulgence (tajalli)” of God in all created things. But Bahá’u’lláh asserts that since each created thing is already a sign or manifestation of at least one of the names and attributes of God, this “general effulgence” is always present, and no one need wait until the Judgment Day for it. A second possibility is a Sufi interpretation which asserts that the presence of God refers to the “specific effulgence” of God’s essence itself. Bahá’u’lláh objects, however, that human beings cannot perceive even the effulgence of God’s essence, any more than they can perceive that essence itself. If this were the meaning of the presence of God, Bahá’u’lláh says, then no one could ever hope to attain it. Bahá’u’lláh here rejects the idea, held by some Sufis, of the immanence of God’s essence, wherein the created world itself is nothing more than the effulgence of the divine essence. He denies that there can be any connection between the created world and the effulgence of that essence. In the third possible meaning Bahá’u’lláh discusses, the Qur’an would intend by the presence of God the “secondary effulgence” which some mystics called the “holy emanation (fayd-i muqaddas).” This secondary effulgence is an effulgence, not of God’s unknowable essence, but simply of his names and attributes. This, according to Bahá’u’lláh, is the station of the prophets and the Imams.

    Bahá’u’lláh reiterates that the prophets and Imams are the minors of the attributes of God, and that only through knowledge of them can human beings attain a knowledge of God. He adds:
    Therefore, whosoever, and in whatever Dispensation, hath recognized and attained unto the presence of these glorious, these resplendent and most excellent Luminaries, hath verily attained unto the “Presence of God” Himself, and entered the city of eternal and immortal life. Attainment unto such presence is possible only in the Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of the rise of God Himself through His all-embracing Revelation [arising of the Self of God through his Universal Manifestation].Therefore, the Resurrection Day symbolizes the appearance of a new Manifestation of God, and the attainment to a knowledge of and belief in this figure equates with the attainment to the “Presence of God” promised in the Qur’an.

    In Bahá’u’lláh’s Tablet of the Manifestation (‘Akka period), He delineates the station of the manifestation of God. He begins by describing a metaphysical entity termed the manifestation (az-zuhur), which seems to be broadly similar to the Word of God or Logos that Bahá’u’lláh discussed in The Tablet of Wisdom. Just as the Word of God was there described as neither nature nor substance, in this tablet Bahá’u’ lláh emphasizes that the manifestation is not composed of the four elements of classical physics. Nor, He states, is the manifestation made up of the four natures. The essence of the manifestation is sanctified above likeness and cannot be known through anything else, being unique above the manifestations of createdness (i.e. contingent beings). Indeed, no creature can even claim to exist in the presence of the manifestation. All things were created by the speech (qawl) of the manifestation, but the latter remains unknowable to them in its inmost reality.

    Bahá’u’lláh describes the manifestation as the mystery of divinity and the essence of self-subsistence, which is to say, it is a manifestation of these divine attributes. Nevertheless, the manifestation ‘seats itself’ upon the ‘throne’ of a human body. This metaphysical entity appears as a human being upon the planet earth. Bahá’u’lláh seems to say that there is a difference between the bodies of ordinary human beings and the human temple of the manifestation. The difference, however, is one of quality and not of kind. The body which the manifestation inhabits is composed of earthly elements just as are the bodies of ordinary human beings, but Bahá’u’lláh goes on to say that the body of the manifestation is to ordinary human bodies as diamond is to stones. Were it not for the bodies of the manifestations of God. Bahá’u’lláh says, the bodies of ordinary human beings would not have been created.

    Bahá’u’lláh proclaims that all the worlds of God derive from the appearance of the manifestations of God. In every world, He manifests Himself according to the capacity of that world. In the world of spirits, for instance, the manifestation appears with the attributes of spirit. Likewise, in the world of bodies, the manifestation appears in a body. And so on throughout the worlds of God. In each realm of being, the manifestation appears in the form characteristic of that realm, so as to guide the realm’s inhabitants to God. However, these inhabitants only come to know a limited form of the manifestation.

    Bahá’u’lláh underlines the ironies of the appearance of this manifestation on the human plane. In spite of the fact that God has ordained that all created things subsist by virtue of the manifestation, in his human descents (tanazzulat), the manifestation nevertheless sees with human eyes, hears with human ears. and speaks with a human tongue. Bahá’u’lláh states that the very appearance of this metaphysical principle in corporeal garb redounds to its grandeur. He gives the example of a craftsman who adorns his own person with a finely crafted ring that he has fashioned himself, illustrating how that from which the world was emanated could nevertheless bedeck himself with that creation. The manifestation’s appearance in human form, Bahá’u’lláh adds, is a grace to God’s creatures, insofar as this allows them to draw nigh to Him. Were He to appear to them as He really is rather than in human form, Bahá’u’lláh declares, no mortal could bear to come near to so awesome a being. He adds that these human bodies that serve as the thrones or seats of the manifestation are born to certain of God’s servants, who might fail to perceive anything out of the ordinary in them, taking them for their own creation. However, He states, when the manifestation takes on a human body, his relationship with all other things is completely changed. At that point, He becomes the Throne of God, and the essences of all created things circle round Him. Recognition of this station depends upon the perceptiveness of the onlookers. The insightful, Bahá’u’lláh says, will recognize that the manifestation was brought into being by God before the creation of the heavens and the earth, despite his appearance in a body which was born in time.

    Bahá’u’lláh reiterates that the manifestation constitutes a primal pattern for the universe. He describes the four elements of the physical oil-verse according to ancient Greek thought—earth, air, fire and water—as deriving from the spiritual “elements” of the human manifestation of God. For instance. earthly fire serves as an analogue to the mysterious fire of the Burning Bush that Moses encountered on Sinai, and physical water stands for the Water of Life through which the manifestations of God bestow eternal salvation upon mortal souls. If this is the station of the human “throne” of the manifestation, Bahá’u’lláh declares, then how great is the station of the metaphysical manifestation Itself!

    Bahá’u’lláh makes specific some of the attributes which are shown forth by the manifestations of God in the following passage:
    These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Minors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.
    He goes on to imply, however, that even the attributes of the manifestation remain inaccessible to human beings, except insofar as the human souls of the believers reflect or replicate them on the level of the world of creation. The “sovereignty” or “wisdom” of the manifestation of God is therefore identical neither to God’s wisdom and sovereignty, nor to human wisdom and sovereignty. On each of the three levels of the world of divinity, the world of command, and the world of creation, essence and attribute exist in a self-contained fashion. Each lower world reflects in its own way, however, the attributes of the higher world, though not the essence of that world.

    A human being can only understand, or approximate an understanding of, the attributes of the manifestations of God by truly knowing his or her own essential self. No human being, however, can understand the essence of the manifestations of God, just as not even manifestations can fathom God’s essence.

    The manifestation of the names and attributes of God is both divine and human, but is neither essential Godhead nor mere mortal. This paradox is explained by Bahá’u’lláh’s doctrine of the dual nature of the manifestation. He wrote:

    Since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature [du ‘unsur], the physical, pertaining to the world of matter; and the spiritual. which is born of the substance of God Himself [is divine (ilahi]). He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality. Representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. . . .

    The second station is the human station.

    In Bahá’u’lláh’s view. the manifestation of God has, during his earthly sojourn, many human limitations. He must eat and drink, is subject to being plunged into poverty or becoming wealthy, can attain glory or be reduced to abject abasement, and in general has the same needs and material constraints as other human beings.[85] On the other hand, Bahá’u’lláh says that “viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being…”

    Again, the idea that the prophet has both a divine and a human station is not a wholly novel one in Islamic culture. Sufis like ‘Abdu’l-Karim al-Jili taught that Muhammad was characterized by the attributes of divinity, and that it was proper to say that he was both the Eternal Truth (i.e. God) and a creature. However, he did so on the basis of his theory of the unity of being, which is unacceptable to Bahá’í theology. The mystical Shi’i philosopher Mulla Sadra Shirazi (d. 1642, AD) also held that the prophet has two aspects, one turned toward sanctification, and the other toward the material world of the body. In his phrase, the prophet is “a divine man, or a human Lord.”[89] Again, however, Mulla Sadra believed that God, as a simple essence (basit al-haqiqah), is all things, though he denied that individual existents could be identified as God. The Bahá’í Faith, however, teaches the concept of the absolute transcendence of God. Christ taught that as well with the many quotes I gave you in which He Himself clearly differentiates Himself from God. What you don’t understand is that all Manifestations are perfect mirrors of God, so they are God in that they reflect all the light of God. Despite the clear statements in Bahá’u’lláh’s writings attributing the station of divinity to the manifestation of God, we should underscore that such a station derives from being a manifestation of the divine attributes, rather than of the essence of God.

    Bahá’u’lláh categorically states that God will never manifest his essence and will remain forever hidden in His essentiality. He can be known only through the manifestations of his attributes through Jesus, Baha’u’llah and His other Messengers, they are all one. So God’s essence remains forever sanctified above all attributes, He is single and alone, His Manifestations perfectly reflect His attributes but are NOT His essense. His Holiness Jesus makes it clear in these Bible Verses:

    Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
    Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

    Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
    Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

    John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
    Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
    Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

    John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

    John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

    Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
    Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation. We can never reach the station of perfection of a Manifestation of God, never. On the other hand, in sharp contrast to the false teachings of the Trinity, the above quotes stand as testimonies to God’s oneness and transcendence over EVERYONE.

    Bahá’u’lláh sometimes employs a sort of “abbreviation” and states the divinity of the manifestations of God with no qualifications. Bahá’u’lláh openly says, “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: ‘I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.” But Baha’i theologians like Cole are not moving to a trinity doctrine. He says: “But all that is meant by such a statement is that the one speaking is a theophany of the divine attributes. In the Arabic Bayan, God tells the Báb that He has given him two stations, and in one of these nothing but God Himself can be seen. In the Surat al-Ahzan (Tablet of Sorrows, circa 1867-68), Bahá’u’lláh laments the martyrdom of the Báb and castigates those who slew God and knew Him not.Moreover, Bahá’u’lláh does sometimes talk of the manifestation of the essence of God. But in the light of his frequent disclaimers that the divine essence can be manifested, we must take this as an abbreviated way of speaking of the manifestation of the attributes of the essence of God.

    In the Effulgences (Tajalliyat), Bahá’u’lláh addresses himself to this issue. He says that the cycle of the full manifestation of God had been timed such that mankind should have reached the sort of spiritual maturity that this concept could be grasped and appreciated. He adds that many, however, could not accept it owing to their immaturity. He indicates that opposition came from both Muslims and Bábís. He directs the latter to read their own scriptures, and points out to the Muslim’s that the quranic story of Moses’ encounter with God is no less a description of theophany than Bahá’u’lláh’s own writings. Muslims, Bahá’u’lláh complains, have accepted that God could manifest Himself in a burning bush, but will not allow that He could do so in a human being.

    At the very end of his life, in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (1891), Bahá’u’lláh made a final defense of the use of the concept of “divinity” (uluhiyyat) to describe the manifestations of God.[98] This for the most part consisted of quoting reports from the Imams which indicated a claim of divinity. He then advised the Shi’i Muslims who accept these reports as authentic to interpret his own claims of divinity in whatever way they interpreted the Imams’ statements. In this same book,Bahá’u’lláh explained that his own claim to divinity is not an assertion of his exaltation, but is rather a denial of self. Precisely because Bahá’u’lláh has extinguished his base self, God can shine through him. He wrote of the station of divinity:
    This station is the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth to God. Divinity. whenever I mention it, indicateth my complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

    In Bahá’u’lláh’s view, then, the manifestations of the names and attributes of God do not have a single station, nor are they limited to a single function. They are, at one extreme, humble and abject servants of God. At the other, they claim to speak with the voice of God Himself, and to manifest his divine perfections to a wayward mankind.When it serves their purposes to do so, they emphasize their humanity. At other times they might proclaim their divinity. In Bahá’u’lláh’s theophanology, divinity and humanity in the manifestation are not mutually exclusive, but are, rather, complementary.

    In one of his earlier works, the Tablet of the City of Divine Unity (written sometime in the late 1850’s or early 1860’s), Bahá’u’lláh warns, “Beware, 0 believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation.” He adds that this acknowledgment of the unity of God’s manifestations is a prerequisite for the recognition of the unity of God Himself. The implication seems to be that by exalting one particular manifestation over the others, one becomes attached to something other than God, and so makes that prophet or messenger a partner in one’s loyalty to God. When God sends a new messenger, a believer whose loyalty is thus compromised will reject him and so ultimately betray God.

    Bahá’u’lláh’s theology recognizes different levels of perception, different degrees of truth. He did not have the dry scholastic outlook, so common in medieval Islam, that religion consists of a set of dogmatic propositions which must be taken on faith and at face value. Thus, He says in Jawahir’l-asrar [Gems of the Mysteries] that at one point a spiritual seeker might perceive great distinctions and differences between the manifestations of God, but as the seeker progresses along the spiritual path the underlying unity of the manifestations will become more apparent. In the beginning, while dwelling in the City of Search, the seeker perceives contradictions and differences between the manifestations of God. But when the seeker arrives in the City of Love, the next highest stage, these distinctions disappear.

    The manifestations of God in their relationship to one another have both the station of unity and the station of distinction, Bahá’u’lláh teaches. He writes in The Book of Certitude that the former of these is the “station of pure abstraction and essential unity.” In this respect, He continues, “if thou callest them all by one name. and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth.” In this sense, all the manifestations of God perform the same function in mediating between the world of God and the world of creation. Each manifested the Word of God. Each taught the same basic religion, but modified it for his particular audience’s needs and culture. Bahá’u’lláh says that since each manifested the same divine attributes, we can see each as a spiritual “return” (raj’ah) of all the past manifestations of God. This by no means implies any sort of reincarnation (a doctrine rejected by Bahá’í scriptures), since each manifestation of God had his own individual soul, which never returns to the earth.

    Given this essential unity of the manifestations of God, from whence does their diversity derive? Bahá’u’lláh makes it clear that “It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ.” While each theophany is a source of the light of the divine attributes, some shine more brightly than others, and some exemplify more of these attributes while in human form than others. In this station of distinction, “each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations.”

    Bahá’u’lláh elsewhere explains that these apparent variations in the intensity of the light of the Manifestations of God derive solely from the variable receptivity of their human audiences. Each manifestation acts in such a way as to fulfill the needs of the particular age and people he addresses. So this ought to clarify your scriptural confusion about Jesus existing before Abraham.

  65. What, are you writing a book ?????

    Are you just going to write so much material that it would be near impossible to respond to ?????

    Again you are wrong about me saying I was a Bahai ,I never at any point stated that I was a Bahai ..

    I have dealt with this issue about the Divinity of Christ and I just ask anyone reading this to refer to my previous answers i gave earlier on this topic . There is no need to present them again, because All you have done Dr J is represent the same biblical verses which I responded to already . I assume that you have done this to once again try and demonstrate that Jesus is “not” who “we” think he is

    All these quotations about the Nature of Christ you you have tried to present as some kind of proof the Bahaullah position falls down completely when we read John 1:1

    Quite simply , The Bahaullah is wrong and none of these verses you site of his give any credence to his claim . In fact Dr J , thats all they are …empty claims

    Its a very easy and simple process to refute because there are no manifestations of God precisely because there is NO UNITY amongst these so called manifestations , and I will explain why breifly and succinctly .

    If we are to believe that Mohammed received revelations from Allah , which are demonstrably false , then we must ask ourselves why did Allah reveal to him ( Mohammed ) that Jesus was not crucified .

    Lets read it again

    S. 4:157-158:
    “And because of their (the Jews) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger- they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.”

    This is one of the most , if not the most egregious errors in the Quran , The implications are no small matter , because they go right to the heart of the credability of the person making the claim ( Mohammed ) and ultimately the entire meaning of Christ atonement for our sins .

    Mohammed was a false prophet , , as is demonstrated in the above texts , among many others . All of the Bahaullahs claims of UNITY of the manifestations should be taken with a grain of salt .

    Unity in word or deed cannot be demonstaretd .In fact the exact opposite is quite easy to demonstrate .

    This so called revelation that Mohammed received which states that Christ was never crucified is either his own fanciful imagination or it is Satanic in its origin ( false revelations from the powers of darkness ).
    I think the latter would be more probable .

    How can anyone with the slightest intelligence accept these bogus revelationss from Mohammed , as being divine in origin .

    As I stated in my previous post , Jesus Christ stated that he PRE EXISTED Abraham ,

    This is contrary to the claims of Bahaullah that all the manifestation have an eternal existence are of the same spirit …whatever that means

    Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life .

  66. On the Eternity of Universe .

    This is a subject that I have invested a great deal of time in , and one that i find truly fascinating .

    Bahaullah teaches that the Universe is eternal

    I believe that he relied heavily on the current of understanding of his time when he made this claim .

    It was fairly unanimous amongst those scientists of his time that the universe was eternal . I believe that Bahaullah saw this as an opportunity to assert scientific credibility . After all , if Bahaullah was of the divine origin , then asserting a “scientific truth” would certainly not do him any harm , if it was in fact true .

    Time is the enemy , though, and the current of the scientific community today are virtually unanimous , save a few , that the universe had a beginning and therefore not eternal

    In fact , what is providential about all this , is that the mainstream scientific community have now confirmed what christians have always believed , and has also confirmed the account of Genesis that the universe was indeed created by God and has an absolute beginning .

    So if Bahai’s want to hold on to this belief then thats their own prerogative . It stands apart from what is known

    Happy to discuss this further too . i really look forward to a dialogue concerning the origins of the universe

  67. I would like to respond Dr J to the following comment you stated . since you posted so much information i will respond to this one as i found it rather interesting .

    I think its rather fascinating that you want delve into a philosophical conversation

    YOU SAID
    It is important for Bahá’í theology that Bahá’u’lláh affirmed Avicenna’s solution to the problem of the co-eternity of the universe with God. In his Tablet of Wisdom (Lawh-i hikmat; c. 1874), Bahá’u’lláh explained that when the holy books (the Bible and the Qur’an) speak of the creation of the universe in time, they are alluding in symbolic fashion to the essential preexistence of God and the essential origination of the material universe. However, Bahá’u’lláh continues, this does not prevent the universe from being co-eternal with God and sharing with Him in temporal preexistence. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá later expanded on the Avicennian schema in this regard.[17]
Only God is essentially preexistent, which means that He is not preceded by a cause. What Aristotle called, the Unmoved Mover. God is not divided into three, He IS indivisible, the notion of the trinity was the Churchs first mistake that was fully corrected with the Revelation of the Koran.

    MY RESPONSE

    Yes God is pre-existent , and is not preceded by a cause . Aristotle was absolutely correct

    Thomas Aquinas stated 700 years before Abdul baha that God is the Prime Mover and the uncaused cause of all things confirming Aristotelian metaphysics .

    Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle would later be vindicated in there philosophical endeavours through current scientific investigation and the knowledge that the universe came into
    existence at a single point in time …THE BIG BANG

    There is no co-eternity with God and creation .

    God Stands outside of creation and brought it into existence

    When Bahaullah stated that the Quran and the bible speak of creation in time as alluding to something symbolic , i have to say that this is really nonsensical ., There is no symbolism in the bible with regards to Gods pre-existence ; it is explicit and unambiguous

    Again John 1:1 clearly and unambiguously states the that Christ is pre-existent and made all things . And not one thing was made that was made .

    Here there is n symbolism , but an explicit teaching that
    1. Christ was eternal
    2 Christ was with God
    3. Christ was God
    4 . Christ pre-existed all created things
    5. Christ created all things

    This very subtle insertion that the church made a MISTAKE is false .

    The premise of this argument is false , which stated
    GOD IS NOT DIVIDED INTO THREE < HE IS INDIVISABLE

    The Doctrine of the trinity does not state that God is divided

    God is ONE in essence , but three in persons . All of these persons have the FULNESS of God with each of them .
    There is absolutely no division in God . There ere not three gods , nor is there a divided God .

    This idea that believing in a triune God somehow reduces God in some way is nothing more than a Quranic straw man fallacy .

    Islam cannot correct something which it inherently fails to understand

    Secondly , to further consolidate the Christian belief in a non eternal creation we see too that Genesis confirms that man is also a creation of God and its absolutely theologically absurd to insist that man is eternal .

    "Let us CREATE man in our image"

    The two things that God created are the material universe and man . Both are CREATED and NON ETERNAL

    Both are created and therefore they have no existence in the eternity of God except as a thought ; but having a thought or an idea is distinct from the realisation of that thought and bringing it into existence .

  68. My apologies for saying you were once a Baha’i, now it all makes sense, you never fell in love with Baha’u’llah because you are too blind, spiritually to see Him, therefore you have missed Christ’s return and deny them both by denying His return.

    You have reified the following quote like many Moslems. That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them…For of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself… – 4:157-8, Yusuf Ali.

    On the strength of this verse, many Muslims believe, in direct opposition to the New Testament, that Jesus Christ was never crucified at all, but was taken up to heaven by God beforehand, and a look-alike crucified in his place. You of course would be among them, by the way, I don’t believe for one minute your wife is a Baha’i, she would divorce you based upon this website alone, if she were an active Baha’i. Nor do I think you understand anything about either the Baha’i Sacred Writings or Koran other than a very elementary understanding.

    This disagreement on the above passage has created a serious obstacle to dialogue between the world’s two largest religions of Islam and Christianity. However, we CAN understand this verse in the light of Christ’s words:

    Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. – John 10:17-18.
    According to the New Testament, the Jewish people had neither the power nor the authority to execute the Messiah. Literally speaking, the Romans carried out the execution. On a deeper level, as part of the purpose of God, no human agency could subvert the Father’s will, once the Son committed Himself to it (Mathew 26:42). Those who outwardly appeared to crucify the Messiah did not actually do so—just as God told the prophet Muhammad in regards to his defensive battle against persecutors from Mecca: “It was not ye who slew them; it was Allah: thou didst not throw when thou threwest, but Allah threw.” (Qur’an 8:17). According to the Qur’an, Allah told Jesus “O Jesus, I am gathering thee,” and the Arabic verb “to gather,” tawaffā, means “to cause to die.”

    Cyril Glassé, a Sunni Muslim and compiler of The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, acknowledges that the Qur’an does not deny the crucifixion of Christ as a historical event:

    “It is in fact the common belief among Muslims that the crucifixion was an illusion, or that someone else was substituted for Jesus… [but] the crucifixion as a pointless charade can hardly be meet to God’s purpose, and two thousand years have not shown what God could have meant by such sleight of hand. Nor does the Koran warrant such a view…In Islam it is the absolute, or higher, reality that takes precedence in the Koran over the appearances of this world, be they of life or of death. It is this verse about the state of the martyrs which holds the key to understanding ‘They slew him not’: ‘Say not of those who are slain in God’s way that they are dead; they are living but you perceive not.’ (2:154) – The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, pp. 208-209.”

    In other words, in the sense in which Christ died, it was God Himself who “took” him. In the sense in which the people thought they had “killed” Him, he did not and could not really die—a concept that squares with Christ’s words in the Gospel of Matthew:

    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. – Mattew 22:31-32.
    A close reading of the Qur’an necessitates nothing else. This interpretation of the Qur’an, while differing from Islamic tradition, coincides exactly with the Baha’i teaching on Christ’s crucifixion:

    Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 36.

    Baha’is believe that the account of the crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct; and that the meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified—with no conflict between the two.

    The Baha’i reconciliation of the New Testament and the Qur’an on this contentious point should greatly interest all students of the world’s religions. At the very least, it invites us all to consider the Qur’an and the Bible on a different level, where unity becomes the guiding principle and divisive dogmas fall away. Like many, sadly, you are guilty of not only of denying God’s oneness and failing to see throught the crystal clear statements of Christ Himself, that Jesus the Christ reflects God’s attributes does NOT contain His essence. I will keep you in my prayers.

  69. Let me quote from another Christian sect, the Church of God, Dr. Armstrong of that church writes: “The word trinity is not used anywhere in the Bible. I am going to make completely clear, as we proceed, God has not limited Himself to a “trinity.” The surprising truth, once understood, is the most wonderful revelation the human mind could receive or contain!

    The very first idea or teaching about God being a trinity began in the latter half of the second century—a hundred years after most of the New Testament had been written. The counterfeit Christianity spawned by Simon the Sorcerer was promoting it vigorously along with the pagan Easter. But the true Church of God vigorously resisted it. The controversy became so violent it threatened the peace of the world. The then pagan Emperor Constantine called this Nicene Council to settle it. The Roman emperor’s supporters greatly outnumbered the persecuted true Church of God.

    You will find a prophecy of these two churches in the book of Revelation. In the 12th chapter is the prophecy of the true Church of God, greatly persecuted. Jesus called it “the little flock.” In the 17th chapter you will find the prophecy of the counterfeit church—a very great church, named by God “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots” (verse 5). She lined up with and sat astride the political governments. The whole world will gasp in wonder (verse 8) when this religio-political medieval “Holy Roman Empire” is brought back to life! It is now in the preliminary stages of forming, starting from the European Common Market!

    False Scripture Added

    There is only one small passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible that is generally used by trinity adherents to support the trinity doctrine. This passage is found in 1 John 5:7-8, and is bracketed in the following quotation: “For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The bracketed words were added by editors to the Latin Vulgate translation probably in the early fourth century. They do not appear in any of the older Greek manuscripts nor in other modern English translations. They were added to the Latin Vulgate during the heat of the controversy between Rome and Dr. Arius and God’s people.

    Bible commentaries explain that these words were never written in the Apostle John’s manuscript or any existing early copies of it. The Apostle John in his three epistles and the book of Revelation speaks of “the Father, and … Son” (1 John 1:3), but never of “the Father and the Word,” except in this uninspired part of 1 John 5:7-8.

    There was a real reason why the arch deceiver Satan wanted that spurious verse added in the Latin Vulgate from which it crept into the Authorized Version. The trinity doctrine completely does away with the gospel of Jesus Christ. His gospel is the message He brought mankind from God the Father, the good news of the coming Kingdom of God! That is the one thing above all Satan wants to defeat.

    One world famous evangelist said: “When I first began to study the Bible years ago, the doctrine of the trinity was one of the most complex problems I had to encounter. I have never fully resolved it, for it contains an aspect of mystery. Though I do not totally understand it to this day, I accept it as a revelation of God. … To explain and illustrate the trinity is one of the most difficult assignments to a Christian.”

    Much is also made of the fact that in a number of places in modern translations the masculine pronoun he is carelessly used in connection with the Holy Spirit. But not always—sometimes the Holy Spirit is referred to as it in these very same translations. For example, in the passage describing the first coming of the Holy Spirit for the founding of the Church of God on that memorable day of Pentecost.

    Holy Spirit Poured Out

    The Holy Spirit came from heaven, audibly, sounding like a mighty wind, “and it [the Holy Spirit] filled all the house where they were sitting.” Next, the Holy Spirit appeared—was visibly seen—manifested—“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as a fire, and it [the Holy Spirit in the form of divided tongues] sat upon each of them” (Acts 2:2-3). In verse 18, Peter is quoting from the Prophet Joel: “I will pour out … of my Spirit ….” The Holy Spirit, like water or a fluid, can be “poured out.” Can you pour out a person from one into another—as from God into those assembled there? John 7:37-39: “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy [Spirit] was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

    Again in Acts 10:45, “… on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy [Spirit].”

    Summary

    Finally, in briefest summary: God is a Family composed at present of the two Persons of John 1:1-4, but with many thousands, already begotten by God’s Spirit, in God’s true Church, soon to be born into that divine Family at Christ’s return to Earth. Jesus Christ, by His resurrection, was born a divine Son of God (Romans 1:4)—the first so born into the God Family (Romans 8:29).

    Both God and Christ are composed of spirit, formed and shaped as a human person, but with eyes like flames of fire and faces bright as the sun in its full strength!

    God is Creator of all that exists. Both God and the Word (who became Christ) have existed eternally and before all else. From them emanates the Spirit of God, by which God is omnipresent and omniscient. God the Father is the divine Father of the God Family, into which truly converted Christians shall be born.”

    When Christ used personal pronouns like “I” am the way….He was referring to His station of being an Intermediary or Manifestation of God. We cannot get to God except through these Intermediaries who are all one! Different names and times in history when They came but like Buddha said, “whenever the world is in decline, another Buddha will come.” He also said a fifth Buddha of “Universal Brotherhood” would come to usher in, however gradually it will be, world peace. That was a precise reference to Baha’u’llah. Christ said He came not to bring peace but a sword. Although as a Baha’i I would not agree with all Rev. Armstrong says here in the above quote, its sufficient to show that you and many Christians who have misinterpreted the Bible and most importantly missed Christ’s own statements which I GAVE you, that you all fail to recognize as Christ Himself did, God’s singularity and superiority over all things.

  70. Well actually my wife is a Bahai ,

    And a further correction is needed as you have asserted that this is my Blog ….well its not .

    You have completely evaded the point and substance of this Quranic verse which as you rightly stated is in opposition to the new testament .
    All you have done is evade the the real essence of this fatal historic error and egregious lie

    Dr J Your premise was that Mohammed came to correct the Christians for believing in a Triune God , That so called correction was based on a misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity . I explained the nature of those errors in my previous post

    How can any sane person accept the historic testimony of a man who lived 600 years after crucifixion of Christ , telling the world that he is a prophet from God and that Jesus death on the cross was nothing more that an illusion made to look like Jesus died , but at the same time he corrected the christians about the nature of God .

    That premise defies logic

    We have to remember that Mohammed tells us that these are revelations from Allah as transmitted through the angel gabriel and that the Quran is the word of God

    Well this just begs the question . Why would God send an angel and tell Mohammed that Jesus never really died on the cross and that it was all a sham to make look as though it was ?????. Nobody can seriously accept this as an authentic revelation from God !!!!

    Why would God transmit an obvious historical falsity via his angel to Mohammed for all the muslims in the world to hold on to as though it were true .

    How can you tell me that Mohammed came to put the Christians on the right path and to correct their trinitarian fallacies in light of this complete Quranic catastrophe .

    You are absolutely correct about this egregious error being a point of contention between Christians and Muslims …..and rightly so .

    It is every Christian persons duty to defend the Gospel against the perversions from false prophets .thats what we are supposed to do

    You are defending the indefensible

    All you are offering in this debate are your own interpretations of the bible but .

    John 1:1 still remains a stumbling block

    You have glossed over the important part of this prologue

    The Word was WITH God
    and the Word WAS God

    You are now saying that God is comprised of a family . Well thats not far from a trinitarian view only you have left out the Holy Spirit

    YOU STATED :
    God is Creator of all that exists. Both God and the Word (who became Christ) have existed eternally and before all else. From them emanates the Spirit of God, by which God is omnipresent and omniscient. God the Father is the divine Father of the God Family, into which truly converted Christians shall be born.”

    MY RESPONSE :
    You a virtually described the Holy Trinity , Nice work ..youre almost there

    The Holy Sprit ( The Paraclete ) or ( The Spirit of Truth ) was indeed poured out over the apostles at Pentecost , just as Christ promised

    John 14:15 -17
    15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you.…

    John 16:6-8
    …6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things. 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:…

    Luke 24:49-52
    49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
    The Ascension of Jesus
    50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

    Oh no Dr J , they did that Worship thing again

  71. YOU STATED THE FOLlOWING DR J
    Thus, He says in Jawahir’l-asrar [Gems of the Mysteries] that at one point a spiritual seeker might perceive great distinctions and differences between the manifestations of God, but as the seeker progresses along the spiritual path the underlying unity of the manifestations will become more apparent.

    MY RESPONSE:
    What spiritual path ?????? A spiritual path that leads one to realise that the manifestations have an underlying unity would not be one of progress , but rather one of regress and denial . as i previously stated , one would need to be blind or ignorant to see that Mohammed could be a manifestation of God as he taught that Jesus was not crucified .
    This is no a small matter as I said before . =This false belief has ramifications on a massive scale when billions of Muslims have believed this .

    Where does this revelation of Mohammed really come from???? , because it isn’t from God .

    YOU THEN QUOTED THE FOLLOWING
    In the beginning, while dwelling in the City of Search, the seeker perceives contradictions and differences between the manifestations of God. But when the seeker arrives in the City of Love, the next highest stage, these distinctions disappear.

    MY RESPONSE:
    This is smoke and mirrors . Reason alone through an independent investigation of truth tells me this is really just pie in the sky fantasy . The other issue I have with this teaching is that it presupposes that if someone does not accept all the manifestations , then that person is somewhat deficient in understanding and has not attained or advanced in love .
    This is really quite flawed in its logic
    Truth is not distinct from love .
    There cannot be love where there is not truth also
    Love is not love if it has no foundations in truth
    So to accept bahaullah’s “process” of attaining love in the absence of truth would be utterly meaningless
    To Correlate the advancement in Love with the understanding that Mohammed is a Prophet of God does not follow logically considering that Mohammed taught an egregious historical error , and one that has left it devotees in blind ignorance for 1400 years .

  72. Your true colors are being manifestly shown here. Evidence from your posts shows a man who is angry and unhappy. You are an attacker of other persons beliefs and of a religion(s) you know VERY little about. Your attacks and harsh words show an arrogant attacker not a kind and tolerate Christian. Your posts confirm the theory that you cannot and will not live and let live.

    I don’t believe your wife is a Baha’i or at least a Baha’i in good standing because if that were the case she would divorce you for attacking and demeaning her beloved Prophet and our precious faith. No true Baha’i woman would allow a scoundrel like you to get by with your baseless attacks on God’s Faith. You show absolutely no respect for the Manifestations or Messengers of other World Religions in your demeaning comments and posts. She would not tolerate your behavior for a minute, if she were a Baha’i in good standing. Maybe I am wrong but I have little doubt that I am about her not being a Baha’i.

    My thoughts are that your faith is so tentative that you feel compelled to attack one of the greatest religions (Islam) in the world–Islam for example. The fact Islam is from God is proven by the accomplishments Islam when Christianity was in the Dark Ages. Its scholars have advanced the fields of Mathematics, science, morals and ethics (cf. http://islamichistory.org/islamic-golden-age/ ), your comments are just bigoted and dumb, not worthy of taking this dialogue further. This is a great website that you will have no explanation for whatsoever. Islam had huge positive impact on Europe that bias and prejudice historians refuse to give the Prophet or His followers credit for.

    You answer so few of my points from YOU have no explanation of the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the explosion of technology caused by the Promised One of all religions being on this earth, to the fact that Baha’u’llah, not by His own will but by God’s will, ended up being imprisoned in Israel and then when released, pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel. Baha’u’llah wrote to all the Monarchs and Leaders of every country all over the world, including this letter to the Pope at that time before he was run out of the Vatican. Each letter was an original but it’s not like He favored one over the other. The purpose of the letter was to make the Official Announcement, the one the world had been waiting for. The Pope were living lavish lifestyles in palaces of gold, Baha’u’llah lived in poverty and in prison most of His ministry here on earth. Who else had ever done such a thing? Nobody! What, they never told you? Rest assured, the Vatican archives all their correspondence and can prove it if pressed to do so.

    No one expected anyone to listen to His guidance but whoever didn’t, would lose their place.

    Notice that all the Monarchies fell after this; what remains today are nothing more than figureheads but they remain because they didn’t think it was a joke. To wit: Napoleon wadded up his letter threw it in the garbage can – you know what happened to him and his little empire, eh.

    Christians are all over the place in their interpretations of scripture so that’s not something anyone can rely on. Fact: The majority are ignorant of their own religion, even more so of other religions. At least you are getting to know the Catholic Faith and the Faith has changed some of its really unrealistic beliefs (e.g. mortal sin to miss Church or masturbate, mortals sins guarantee Hell if not confessed for those who die in mortal sin etc., the Church once believed in “Limbo” where babies who were not baptized would go instead of Heaven and many more which were changed or which still exist) from when I grew up Catholic. Like the myth of St. Christopher my patron Saint, the myth of Limbo was finally abolished by the Church making many people wonder why the Church had the belief in the first place if it represented God’s faith. Think of the countless parents of Catholic faith who lost their unbaptized babies going to the graves throughout history wondering if their child would ever make it to Heaven. The Church has changed for the better in many ways and will continue to move toward the direction brought to the planet by the return of Christ, His holiness Baha’u’llah.

    Christ is not the Prince of Peace – He told believers He didn’t come to bring peace, just a sword of truth to divide people. You know what happened. Baha’u’llah came to bring peace through unity. Big difference. The Baha’i Faith is undivided – there’s an addition to the Covenant which prevents that – something no prior religion had.

    The Baha’i Faith isn’t Islam or a sect of any other religion – it’s an independent religion. People so stubbornly cling to past misconceptions that this is a hard one for them to learn, especially you, just like a addict who is not in recovery instead of using drugs or alcohol spend wastes his time in a sea of negativity, attacking other people religions instead of letting bygones be bygones. BUT, every educated Christian knows that there is an end to Christs dispensation; with that end, comes the Return. This is undeniable. What can be ignored is when that end is.

    The Bab and Baha’u’llah represent the end of the Adamic Cycle and the beginning of whats amounts to be the New Jerusalem.”There isn’t the slightest hint, however, in his announcement of it, that anyone named Baha’ullah would have anything to do with it.”

    When Christ was *declaring Who He was*, it was all about His own station, not anyone’s else’s. The *Great Announcement* wasn’t His to make. You should read ALL of the OT and NT – every true Prophet of God mentioned this arrival, including Christ. You can even go to a different religion and find mention of it. I study eschatology and oddly enough all the holy books talk about this time we are living in and refer to Baha’u’llah, I wrote a chapter in the Encyclopedia of Death and Human Experience on this very subject with a Catholic Philosophy Professor.

    Baha’u’llah was a real Persian Prince. He wasn’t some cranked out left wing, generic zealot – He was a Nobleman from a well-known powerful Dynasty; that’s why His letters were authoritatively dispatched and properly received by the world’s leaders–including the Pope. Whereas, Christ was a carpenter, not heir to a royal throne. Jesus prophesied that permanent world peace would be established, but only Baha’u’llah said it would happen in His own dispensation. If you can’t stick around to find out, no worries, the whole world will see it. Then it’s a moot point.

    Like the Pope and other Christian leaders who were sent letters from Baha’u’llah while He was imprisoned, the Jews haven’t denied Baha’u’llah. That’s why God permitted them to return to Israel. Overall, they don’t persecute anyone and, generally, their clergy don’t refuse to give up their people to another Prophet. It was an act of God for Baha’u’llah to be sent to Israel, pitch His tent on God’s Holy Mountain in fulfillment of Bible prophecy and then we witness the entire mountainside of Mt. Carmel forming God’s arc. The arc of Baha’i buildings built on the side of God’s mountain includes the ONLY real spokesperson for God today, the Universal House of Justice. We have wonderful Pope today, who hopefully will move the Church more and more toward the social teachings of Baha’u’llah. Afterall, He promised that His principles will be brought into reality by non-Baha’is as well as Baha’is.

    Regardless of how or where Christianity or the Catholic Faith grows, it will never regain its former glory. They, themselves, know that they’re at their end of days – it’s no secret, Christianity will to continue due to its current impotency to divide into endless numbers of cults, sects and denominations, the Universal Catholic Church has reached its zenith prior to Muhammad and has been on a downward spiral ever since including the Reformation and Counter Reformations, and the proliferation of Christian sects in the 1800s. The brave nuns who asking for women’s rights to become priests and the few brave priests who release Catholicism has no social influence any more, its a rural religion like all the older religions, while the Baha’i Faith is truly a universal faith of modern times.. Quality trumps quantity, we live in a time where the world has never seen so many atheists. Interesting correlation there and Italy the very country where the Vatican lies is submerged in secularism, that speaks volumes for the lack of broad moral and ethical influence that once was, that no longer is. Every religion has reached every part of the world today. God has already put people in their place. It isn’t going to be easy for anyone to get out of it. To humble you and the other disbelievers God will have to put you through a purification process, show you with your own eyes the corruption and impotency of Old World Religions today (including yours) so that you have a chance to see the Glory of the Father. Pius IX was sent the following letter from Baha’u’llah: “O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined… Dwellest thou in palaces whilst He Who is the King of Revelation liveth in the most desolate of abodes? Leave them unto such as desire them, and set thy face with joy and delight towards the Kingdom… Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence, and first drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths…
    Call thou to remembrance Him Who was the Spirit (Jesus), Who when He came, the most learned of His age pronounced judgment against Him in His own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take 84 heed, then, ye men of understanding heart! Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself, lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light… Consider those who opposed the Son (Jesus), when He came unto them with sovereignty and power. How many the Pharisees who were waiting to behold Him, and were lamenting over their separation from Him! And yet, when the fragrance of His coming was wafted over them, and His beauty was unveiled, they turned aside from Him and disputed with Him… None save a very few, who were destitute of any power amongst men, turned towards His face. And yet, today, every man endowed with power and invested with sovereignty prideth himself on His Name! In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn….
    The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is 85 fulfilled!…’ My body longeth for the cross, and Mine head waiteth the thrust of the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful, that the world may be purged from its transgressions….
    O Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of mouldering bones counselleth thee, as voiced by Him Who is His Most Great Name. Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven. Thus hath bidden thee He Who is the Possessor of Names, on the part of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Exhort thou the kings and say: ‘Deal equitably with men. Beware lest ye transgress the bounds fixed in the Book.’ This indeed becometh thee. Beware lest thou appropriate unto thyself the things of the world and the riches thereof. Leave them unto such as desire them, and cleave unto that which hath been enjoined upon thee by Him Who is the Lord of creation. Should any one offer thee all the treasures of the earth, refuse to even glance upon them. Be as thy Lord hath been. Thus hath the Tongue of Revelation spoken that which God hath made the ornament of the book of creation… Should the inebriation of the wine of My verses seize thee, and thou determinest to present thyself before the throne of thy Lord, 86 the Creator of earth and heaven, make My love thy vesture and thy shield remembrance of Me, and thy provision reliance upon God, the Revealer of all power… Verily, the day of ingathering is come, and all things have been separated from each other. He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into fire that which befitteth it. Thus hath it been decreed by your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving, in this promised Day. He, verily, ordaineth what He pleaseth. There is none other God save He, the Almighty, the All-Compelling.” I bow down to recognize my Lord, the King of Kings, and the Promised One of ALL world religions and yes the ONE who you seek but are too blind to see.

  73. According to the New Testament, the Jewish people had neither the power nor the authority to execute the Messiah. Literally speaking, the Romans carried out the execution. On a deeper level, as part of the purpose of God, no human agency could subvert the Father’s will, once the Son committed Himself to it (Mathew 26:42). Those who outwardly appeared to crucify the Messiah did not actually do so—just as God told the prophet Muhammad in regards to his defensive battle against persecutors from Mecca: “It was not ye who slew them; it was Allah: thou didst not throw when thou threwest, but Allah threw.” (Qur’an 8:17). According to the Qur’an, Allah told Jesus “O Jesus, I am gathering thee,” and the Arabic verb “to gather,” tawaffā, means “to cause to die.”
    What does that mean “THOSE WHO OUTWARDLY APPEARED TO CRUCIFY JESUS” did not actually do so . That doesn’t make sense Dr J because you have the premise in you interpretation of this text

    I am not sure what kind of logic you are trying to present here but its a self annihilating statement

    Those who outwardly appeared to kill Jesus , ie the Romans did in fact kill Jesus , and they did so with the complete blessing of the Jews who conspired to Kill Jesus

    How then can you say that those who outwardly killed jesus did not kill him …when they did

    This is your hypothesis
    1 The Jews didn’t kill Jesus . ( Had no Authority )
    2 It wasn’t actually the Romans who Killed him .
    3 It was really Allah who took Jesus

    Which one was it Dr J , the Romans or Allah . Looks like you are having a bet each way

    There is still another problem with this hypothesis , that virtually the entire muslim population does not believe that Jesus was crucified and the broad consensus amongst islamic Scholars is that Jesus did not die but was taken to Allah

    When Allah Gathered Christ to himself (Taffawa ) , it doesn’t always mean to die

    TAWAFFA: TO CAUSE TO DIE, TO TAKE IN SLEEP OR TO TAKE BACK

    The word tawaffa as used in this verse has other meanings than simply ‘death’ in English. A study of the Arabic equivalents of the words in the verses reveals that the Prophet Jesus (as) did not die in the accepted sense. This is how his being taken back to Allah is described in Surat al-Ma’ida:
     

    I said to them nothing but what You ordered me to say: “Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” I was a witness against them as long as I remained among them, but when You took me back to You (tawaffa), You were the One watching over them. You are Witness of all things. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 117)
     

    Surah Al ‘Imran states:
     

    When Allah said, “Jesus, I will take you back (mutawaffeeka) and raise you up (wa rafi’uka) to Me and purify you of those who are unbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are unbelievers until the Day of Resurrection…” (Surah Al ‘Imran, 55)
     

    This verse informs the believers that Allah will “take back” the Prophet Jesus (as), protect him from the unbelievers, and raise him to His Presence. Many great Islamic scholars and commentators have interpreted this verse to mean that the Prophet Jesus (as) did not die.

    In Arabic the word that is translated in some translations of these verses as “You have caused me to die” is tawaffa and comes from the root wafa – to fulfil. In fact, in Arabic commentaries it is not used in the sense of death. The commentary of Imam al-Qurtubi is one example of this; he used the expression “the taking away of the selves” for the word in question. From the Qur’an again, we understand that “taking the self back” does not necessarily mean death. For instance in a verse in which the word tawaffa is used, it is not the death of a human being that is meant but “taking back his self in his sleep”:
     

    It is He Who takes you back to Himself (yatawaffakum) at night, while knowing the things you perpetrate by day, and then wakes you up again, so that a specified term may be fulfilled… (Surat al-An’am, 60)
     

    The word used for “take back” in this verse is the same as the one used in Surah Al ‘Imran 55. In other words, in the verse above, the word tawaffa is used and it is obvious that one does not die in one’s sleep. Therefore, what is meant here is, again, “taking the self back.”

    The same word is used again in the verse below:
     

    Allah takes back people’s selves (yatawaffa) when their death or (mawtiha) arrives and those who have not yet died, while they are asleep (lam tamut). He keeps hold of those whose death (mawt) has been decreed and sends the others back for a specified term… (Surat az-Zumar: 42)

    Are Muslims just too stupid to understand there own language.

    Muslims clearly understand this to mean exactly what I have said they mean , namely that Jesus was not crucified but was .

    Even if your interpretation is correct , it still leaves us with the problem of Islam being the religion to replace Christianity .

    Why would God reveal something to Mohammed that was :
    1 suppose to abrogate Christianity and reveal THE TRUTH
    But then
    2 ultimately leave them ( muslims ) confused as

    Why teach something that was going to cause so many off its new and enlightened followers to become utterly cornfuuddled in their own misunderstanding

  74. Evidence from my post show that I am angry and unhappy .

    Really Dr J . Go back and re-read your posts

    And yes my wife is Bahai , and yes she does know how I feel and yes we love each other tremendously . We have a beautiful relationship together and absolutely dote on each other . My wife is the most beautiful creature I have ever met and she is treated like an absolute princess .

    The catholic faith is rich , beautiful ,relevant and true .

    The Bahaullah does not fulfil bible prophecy , we have been down that road already .

    If you believe my beliefs in the Catholic faith are tentative then you have gravely misrepresented my certitude towards my religion

    You want to quote from Bahaullah letter to pope Pius 9

    My body length for the cross and my head the thrust of the spear .

    Jesus head was not thrust with the spear as i Think Bahaullah has wrongly insinuated . Jesus’ side was thrust with the spear and his head was crowned with thorns

    But lets compare Jesus and Bahuallah here

    Jesus confronted his contemporaries personally . He did no write letters .

    Jesus gave his contemporaries an opportunity to reply to his claims

    Bahaullah gave no such opportunity to Pius 9 by confronting him as Jesus did the Pharisees

    This letter is very a one sided argument and cannot be taken seriously nor can it be paralleled with the bravery of Christ in confronting his contemporaries FACE TO FACE

  75. What is this theory Live and let live .

    Overcoming addiction does mean that we become passive

    If anything it has taught me to be resilient , steadfast , and never to give up and fight for what is true .

    Jesus doesn’t call us to be passive , he calls us to be active christians , to go out into the world . Maybe you have missed this meaasage fro Christ

    Are you embodying this theory yourself to live and let live : absolutely not . So don’t expect me to either

  76. You answer so few of my points from YOU have no explanation of the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, the explosion of technology caused by the Promised One of all religions being on this earth, to the fact that Baha’u’llah, not by His own will but by God’s will, ended up being imprisoned in Israel and then when released, pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel. Baha’u’llah wrote to all the Monarchs and Leaders of every country all over the world, including this letter to the Pope at that time before he was run out of the Vatican. Each letter was an original but it’s not like He favored one over the other. The purpose of the letter was to make the Official Announcement, the one the world had been waiting for. The Pope were living lavish lifestyles in palaces of gold, Baha’u’llah lived in poverty and in prison most of His ministry here on earth. Who else had ever done such a thing? Nobody! What, they never told you? Rest assured, the Vatican archives all their correspondence and can prove it if pressed to do so.

    I answer so few of your points !!!!!!!!!

    in fact Dr J I have answered many of your points especially earlier in the debate .i answered them point by point .

    Go back and reread my rebuttals

    But i called you out previously about the ridiculous amount of information you are now supply

    You do this deliberately in order to over-saturate the conversation so that that it would be impossible to reply them all .this is a poor tactic Dr J and shows your desperation

    I answered the Carmel prophecy claims already , no need to go down this road again

    So you now saying that the Pope responded to Bahaullah . Then lets here about that Dr J

    Why do Bahai’s never publish this if such a thing is true .

    What , they never told you!!!!!!!!
    If there is correspondence then lets here about and stop making claims without backing them up

    Who else has ever done such a thing ??????
    So what , it doesn’t prove anything

    Dr J as I have stated previously , in order for your Bahaullah to be Jesus , there needs to be certain truths about Christ that need to be eliminated

    1 He did not physically rise from the dead
    2 He is not God but a mere manifestation
    3 He did not atone for the sins of the world

    that means that the revelations of Bahaullah are really ANTI – REVELATIONS

    I really want to explore the revelations of Mohammed more because this man is is a huge problem for Bahia’s

    In order to believe Bahaullah we would need to reduse Christ to something other than what he truly is , and that is Lord , God and saviour of the entire world

  77. YOU SAID
    My thoughts are that your faith is so tentative that you feel compelled to attack one of the greatest religions (Islam) in the world–Islam for example. The fact Islam is from God is proven by the accomplishments Islam when Christianity was in the Dark Ages. Its scholars have advanced the fields of Mathematics, science, morals and ethics (cf.

    MY RESPONSE
    Yes you are correct , but so has the catholic faith , long before islam came on to the scene the catholic church has fielded many great philosophers . the catholic church has also fielded many more scientists than has Islam .

    So of we are to frame your undrstanding here we can deduce that Islam does not supersede Christianity

    But a correction needs to made . The idea of the dark ages is a total fabrication , its a myth

    There were no dark ages .

    This is just another one one your sweeping generalisations , amongst many , that you have made against christianity that just does stack uo to scrutiny

    This also demonstates that you will source any literature that seems to fit your your theories , regardless of whether they are true or not

    In fact even encyclopedia Brittanica does not use this term as its completely misleading

    there were many many brilliant catholic scholars and theologians who flourished during these so called DARK TIMES

    Hers a great link that may help you understand the reality of the DARK AGES
    http://www.cracked.com/article_20615_5-ridiculous-myths-you-probably-believe-about-dark-ages.html

    In fact in spite of the abundance of technology , which you falsely attribute to someone ( BAHAULLAH ) , that the vast majority of the world doesn’t even know , we are now living in the darkest times in the history of the world .

    Only a “civilisation” that brutally murders its unborn children at such an alarming rate as ours , can truly be called dark

    Below is a list of myths perpetuated throughout the modern regarding the so called DARK AGES

    The Italian scholar Petrarch coined the phrase “Dark Ages” in the 1330s to describe what he saw as a decline in the quality of Latin literature from the time of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Later, the term expanded to refer more generally to the supposed lack of cultural advancement in Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire to the dawn of the Renaissance, a period officially known as the Early Middle Ages (500-1000 A.D.). But historians—especially in later years—question the fairness of this characterization, and consider “Dark Ages” to be a derogatory term. In fact, life in the Early Middle Ages was not actually much darker or more barbaric compared to other eras, and the period saw its own share of political, social, cultural, economic and religious change.

    The idea of the “Dark Ages” came from later scholars who were heavily biased toward ancient Rome.

    In the years following 476 A.D., various Germanic peoples conquered the former Roman Empire in the West (including Europe and North Africa), shoving aside ancient Roman traditions in favor of their own. The negative view of the so-called “Dark Ages” became popular largely because most of the written records of the time (including St. Jerome and St. Patrick in the fifth century, Gregory of Tours in the sixth and Bede in the eighth) had a strong Rome-centric bias.

    While it’s true that such innovations as Roman concrete were lost, and the literacy rate was not as high in the Early Middle Ages as in ancient Rome, the idea of the so-called “Dark Ages” came from Renaissance scholars like Petrarch, who viewed ancient Greece and Rome as the pinnacle of human achievement. Accordingly, they dismissed the era that followed as a dark and chaotic time in which no great leaders emerged, no scientific accomplishments were made and no great art was produced.

    The Church replaced the Roman Empire as the most powerful force in Europe, redefining the relationship between church and state.

    In Rome’s absence, Europe in the Early Middle Ages lacked a large kingdom or other political structure as a single centralizing force, apart from a brief period during the reign of the Frankish Emperor Charlemagne (more on that later). Instead, the medieval Church grew into the most powerful institution in Europe, thanks in no small part to the rise of monasticism, a movement that began in the third century with St. Anthony of Egypt and would rise to its most influential point in the High Middle Ages (1000-1300 A.D.).

    Kings, queens and other rulers during the early medieval period drew much of their authority and power from their relationship with the Church. The rise of a strong papacy, beginning with Gregory the Great (pope from 590 to 604), meant that European monarchs could not monopolize power, unlike in the days of the Roman Empire. This idea of limits on royal power would continue into the High Middle Ages, influencing such milestones as the Magna Carta and the birth of the English Parliament.

    The growth of monasticism had important implications for later Western values and attitudes.

    The dominance of the Church during the Early Middle Ages was a major reason later scholars—specifically those of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century and the Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries—branded the period as “unenlightened” (otherwise known as dark), believing the clergy repressed intellectual progress in favor of religious piety. But early Christian monasteries encouraged literacy and learning, and many medieval monks were both patrons of the arts and artists themselves.

    One particularly influential monk of the Early Middle Ages was Benedict of Nursia (480-543), who founded the great monastery of Montecassino. His Benedictine Rule—a kind of written constitution laying out standards for the monastery and congregation and limiting the abbot’s authority according to these standards—spread across Europe, eventually becoming the model for most Western monasteries. Finally, Benedict’s insistence that “Idleness is the enemy of the soul” and his rule that monks should do manual as well as intellectual and spiritual labor anticipated the famous Protestant work ethic by centuries.

    The Early Middle Ages were boom times for agriculture.

    Before the Early Middle Ages, Europe’s agricultural prosperity was largely limited to the south, where sandy, dry and loose soil was well suited to the earliest functioning plough, known as the scratch plough. But the invention of the heavy plough, which could turn over the much more fertile clay soil deep in the earth, would galvanize the agriculture of northern Europe by the 10th century. Another key innovation of the period was the horse collar, which was placed around a horse’s neck and shoulders to distribute weight and protect the animal when pulling a wagon or plough. Horses proved to be much more powerful and effective than oxen, and the horse collar would revolutionize both agriculture and transportation. The use of metal horseshoes had become common practice by 1000 A.D. as well.

    Scientists also believe something called the Medieval Warm Period took place from 900 to 1300, during which the world experienced relatively warm conditions. This held particularly true for the Northern Hemisphere, extending from Greenland eastward through Europe. Combined with key advances in farming technology, uncommonly good weather appears to have fueled the agricultural boom of the period.

    Great advances were made in science and math—in the Islamic world.

    Among the more popular myths about the “Dark Ages” is the idea that the medieval Christian church suppressed natural scientists, prohibiting procedures such as autopsies and dissections and basically halting all scientific progress. Historical evidence doesn’t support this idea: Progress may have been slower in Western Europe during the Early Middle Ages, but it was steady, and it laid the foundations for future advances in the later medieval period.

    At the same time, the Islamic world leaped ahead in mathematics and the sciences, building on a foundation of Greek and other ancient texts translated into Arabic. The Latin translation of “The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing,” by the ninth-century Persian astronomer and mathematician al-Khwarizmi (c. 780-c. 850), would introduce Europe to algebra, including the first systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations; the Latinized version of al-Khwarizmi’s name gave us the word “algorithm.”

    The Carolingian Renaissance saw a flowering in the arts, literature, architecture and other cultural realms.

    Karl, a son of Pepin the Short, inherited the Frankish kingdom with his brother Carloman when Pepin died in 768. Carloman died several years later, and 29-year-old Karl assumed complete control, beginning his historic reign as Charlemagne (or Charles the Great). Over some 50 military campaigns, his forces fought Muslims in Spain, Bavarians and Saxons in northern Germany and Lombards in Italy, expanding the Frankish empire exponentially. As representative of the first Germanic tribe to practice Catholicism, Charlemagne took seriously his duty to spread the faith. In 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne “emperor of the Romans,” which eventually evolved into the title of Holy Roman Emperor.

    Charlemagne worked to uphold this lofty distinction, building a strong centralized state, fostering a rebirth of Roman-style architecture, promoting educational reform and ensuring the preservation of classic Latin texts. A key advancement of Charlemagne’s rule was the introduction of a standard handwriting script, known as Carolingian miniscule. With innovations like punctuation, cases and spacing between words, it revolutionized reading and writing and facilitated the production of books and other documents. Though the Carolingian dynasty had dissolved by the end of the ninth century (Charlemagne himself died in 814), his legacy would provide the foundations—including books, schools, curricula and teaching techniques—for the Renaissance and other later cultural revivals.

  78. Seal of the Prophets

    Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets.
    – Qur’an 33:40

    Beseech God, and let your prayerful attitude and a clean heart guide you to see the meanings in God’s words.

    The word “Seal” (kha’tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been interpreted over the centuries to mean the: “Last”, “Final”, “Seal” (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), “Seal” (as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and a few other meanings along similar lines of interpretation. Bahá’ís don’t object to these possible meanings, and readily believe in the more common interpretation of: (Seal meaning Last), as Muhammad (PBUH) is repeatedly referred to in the Bahá’í Writings. This may at first appear contrary to believing that there is a new religion, but the visitor is invited to read further.

    Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other.

    Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer revelations:

    “Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
    – Daniel 12:9

    Another verse in the Old Testament says that the law of the Sabbath shall not be broken.

    * * * * *

    For our Christian brothers and sisters, it was verses such as these below, which lead them to believe that there would not be any revelation after that of Christ:

    “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
    – John 14:6

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
    – Luke 21:33

    “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. ”
    – Hebrews 1:1

    These and many other verses (see below) that talk about, how only through Jesus (PBUH) we can know the Father, and how His words will never be replaced, were the reason that Christians would not accept any Messenger after Christ.

    Going back to the meaning of the “Seal of the Prophets”, this verse, and other verses about the completion of religion in Islam, have been interpreted by the majority of Muslims as indication of the finality, not only of Prophethood, but of all revelation. Other opinions and interpretations, including some by Muslim scholars, have argued that since there are many other verses in the Qur’an which explain the endless nature of the Words of God, in addition to other verses and Hadiths (traditions and sayings of the Prophet), which talk about the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mahdi, these opinions, have argued that there may be other interpretations for these verses. Some of these interpretations are mentioned below.

    Other verses

    Some of these verses were interpreted as indicating finality of revelation in the Bible, and some caused the people to fear and suspect future Prophets:

    “Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
    Daniel 12:9

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
    Bible, Hebrews 1:1-3

    ‘being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone,’
    Ephesians 2:20

    ‘For all the prophets and the law have prophesied unto John’ So the line of prophets is closed.
    Matthew 11:13

    ‘And many false prophets shall arise and shall mislead many’
    Matthew 24:11

    ‘And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth’
    Revelations 11:3

    ‘And the beast was taken, and the false prophet that was with him, who wrought the signs before him by which he deceived them that received the mark of the beast, and those that worship his image’
    Revelations 19:20

    Disclaimer on Interpretation

    The meanings are inexhaustible in the words of God. The Holy Qur’an is said to be loaded (pregnant) with meanings (Hammalatu Ma’ani in Arabic). Let your prayerful attitude and a clean heart guide you to see the meaning in God’s words.

    [75:16-19]: Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur’an) to make haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated): Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear).

    [3:7]: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

    [10:39-41]: Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong! Of them there are some who believe therein, and some who do not: and thy Lord knoweth best those who are out for mischief. If they charge thee with falsehood, say: “My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do, and I for what ye do!”

    [17:36-7 ]: And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

    4a. Oneness of the Prophets

    Many passages in religious scripture and other studies of theology hint at the idea that the Reality of the Messengers of God is the same reality, in as much as, They all came from the same Source, bringing us God’s Teachings, and mirroring forth His attributes. In this light, it can be understood for example, how Jesus (PBUH) could also claim that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Here are some Muslim sources which contribute to such theme:

    The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – the which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein …- Qur’an 42:13

    Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah (in Islam).” – Qur’an 2:136

    Anas ibn Malik said,
    One day the Messenger of God, peace be upon him, offered his morning prayer and ascended the pulpit. His face was resplendent as the full moon. We asked the Messenger of God to interpret the verse of the Qur’an: “…they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favor of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous.” [4:69] He said, (ama-an-nabiyoona fa-ana…) By the term “Prophets” I am meant, by the term “saints” Ali ibn Abi Talib is meant, by “martyrs” my uncle Hamzah is meant and the “righteous” are my daughter Fatimah and her two sons Hasan and Husayn.”

    [Bihar’ul-Anwar vol. 7 by Majlesi, cited from Riyaz ul Janan by Fazl’u’llah ibn Mahmood al-Faresi] In this section of the book there are several references based on similar ahadith. Other Shi’ah scholars such as Allamih Kulaini in the book of Kafi and Mohsen Fayz Kashani in Tafseer-e Safi refer to the same set of ahadith with similar interpretations.

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah’s Apostle said, “Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.”

    Sahih-Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:

    “The prophets are brothers of different mothers, but their religion is one. Of all men I am the most deserving to be the brother of Jesus Son of Mary, for there was no prophet between me and him.”
    [Al Hendy, Kanzol ‘Ummal, Vol. 17, Hadith No. 1033.]
    Salman al-Farsi (RA) narrated that:

    I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) saying: “I myself, and Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (AS). When Allah created Adam (AS) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part Ali.”

    References:
    – Mizan Al-Ei’tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
    – Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
    – al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
    – History of Ibn Asakir

    Also see point 5 in the previous section

    Bahá’u’lláh on the Oneness of the Prophets

    “The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

    These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade…. These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

    These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”

    It hath, therefore, become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they who are the Day Springs of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty…. ”

    4b. Difference in Station between a Messenger (Rasool), and Prophet (Nabi)

    Opinions have differed on whether the word “Rasool” (Messenger /Apostle), and the word “Nabi” (Prophet), are interchangeable. Notwithstanding the fact that Muhammad (PBUH) was both a Prophet and a Messenger, there obviously are differences, at least in definition, between the two words. Some people argue that the term “Seal of the Prophets” does not apply to Messengers, while others have argued that all Prophets by definition, are Messengers as well, which would mean that by sealing prophethood, messengership is also sealed.

    Definitions and Clues:

    One definition of “Messenger” given, is that a Messenger brings a revelation, a religion. The following verse from the Qur’an is repeated three times, always with the word “Rasool”:

    “He it is Who sends the Messenger for guidance, with the true religion.”
    Qur’an 9:33, 48:28, and 61:9

    Only a few Individuals mentioned in the Qur’an are called Messengers. In chapter 61 of the Qur’an (Al-Saf), in verses 4,5, and 8, the word “Rasool” is used for Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBU Them). All Three were law bearing Messengers with Books and Revelation (Deen).

    In the Holy Qur’an, we find many more names of prophets mentioned than of Messengers. Some of these names are, Isaac, Jacob, Ismael, Idris, David, Solomon and many many others (PBU Them all). They were all prophets, and non of Them came with a new religion. It is also interesting to read in the following verse that those who obey the Messenger, will be in the company of the prophets and the saints (who also obey the Messenger):

    All who obey God and the Messenger are in the company of those on whom is the grace of God, of the Prophets, the sincere, the martyrs (or witnesses) and the righteous ”
    Qur’an 4:69

    Another definition of the term “prophet” (nabi) is that prophets (such as the minor prophets of Judaism), received their inspiration usually in the form of dreams:
    I ( Burayd) said: May my life be your ransom. What is a Messenger, a Prophet and one who is told? He said: A Messenger is one to whom the angel appears and speaks.A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Possibly the Prophethood and Messengership is combined in a single person.
    Usul al-Kafi, Book 4,442-4

    In the same book(Usul al-Kafi), 439-1 states:

    A Prophet is one who sees the angel while asleep, and hears him but does not see the angel while awake. A Messenger is one who hears the voice while awake and sees while asleep, and also with his eyes sees the angel when awake. [see further explanation below]

    More to consider:

    Allamih Majlesi in Bihar’ul-Anvar Vol 13, p.323 mentions one of the discourses of Imam Ali. In that discourse Ali says: “I am the Commander of the faithful. I am the King among the pious….. I am the Khatam’u-Vasieen [which can be either taken as “The Seal of the guardians and successors”, or, as “The Ornament of the Guardians and successors”.] and the heir of the prophets and the representative of the God of the worlds.”

    This Hadith is referred to as the Hadith Nuraniah as is reported by several people such as Ibn Babyih (Sheikh Sadooq) in “Uyoon’ul-Akhbar Ar-Rida”.

    This tradition of Imam Ali is a very interesting. One must be fair in one’s judgment. If we are to take, in this tradition, the term “Khatam” as “the Seal”, “the ender”, “one who completes”, then one is obliged to accept that Ali was “the seal of the guardians, and successors”, after Muhammad, Who is the Seal of the prophets. Yet, Shi’ahs believe that after Muhammad there was supposed to be twelve Imams, only the first of Whom was Ali. So, assuming that the term Khatam in Khatam’u-Vasieen must have a similar meaning to the term Khatam in Khatam’u- Nabieen, then one is to question why were there more Imams after Ali. How are we to reconcile the existence of the other Imams, Who came after Ali, based on this interpretation? Let this be food for thought for the possessors of pure heart and open mind.

    Let us now examine the meaning of the term Khatam’u-Nabieen from the perspective of Sunni scholars and theologians, so that the seekers of truth obtain a wider spectrum of views for their judgment:

    In the commentary of Fat’hol-Ghadeer by Hafiz Mohhades-i-Shokani we find: “All the Ghoraba use KhatEm, while Athim use KhatAm. KhatEm in Khatem’un-Nabeein means the Ender of Prophets, or the Seal of Prophets, while, KhatAm in Khatam’un-Nabeein means ring and ornament. In essence Muhammad, the Messenger of God, was the Ring or Ornament of (i.e. among) the Prophets, due to His exalted station compared to other Prophets.”

    The same book quotes from Dorr’ul-Mansoor of Allamih Jallal’u-Din Suyutti, who quotes Ayeshih, the wife of Muhammad, who said: “Say KhatAm-un-Nabeein (i.e. The Ring or Ornament of the Prophets), and never say no prophets shall come after Him (i.e. Muhammad)”.

    One can find the same references in the commentary of Kashaaf, by Zamakhshari, who says: “Muhammad, the Messenger of God, was called Khatam’u-Nabieen, since, He did not have any male offsprings to inherit prophethood from Him.” He goes on and presents a Hadith from Prophet Muhammad who says about His deceased son Abraham (from Marieh, the Egyptian wife of Muhammad): “If my son Abraham was alive, he would have been a Nabi (i.e. He would have become a Nabi after Me.)”. However, all of Muhammad’s male offsprings die in early childhood, thus, the verse of the Qur’an: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you….” comes into fulfillment, and Muhammad become Khatam’u-Nabieen, according to the same verse.”

    Abo’l-Bagha, another trusted Sunni source discusses this issue in his book, “Mofeed”, from the same angle, which I will not quote here in order to prevent excessive repetition of the same idea.

    It is apparent from what has been mentioned at length, that both Shi’ah and Sunni sources agree that:

    1- There is a more profound meaning associated with the title Khatam’u-Nabieen:

    2- Finality of Muhammad’s revelation is not implied by this term, mentioned in the Qur’an, the Confederates: (33:40).

    Let me close this note with the view of Abol-Fada’il-i Golpayegani, a prominent Bahá’í scholar, from a Muslim background, who, in his book Fara’id addresses the question of Khatam’u-Nabieen as follows: “No wonder if the learned of Islam too, argue against the renewal of revelation from God [like their predecessors, Jews and Christians, who are firmly convinced that their respective religions are the final revelation from God], based on such references as: Khatam’u-Nabeein, or such traditions as: “There shall be no prophet after me….”, and by doing so become subjected to a test of faith; and join their predecessors [Jews and Christians]. Not realizing that the purpose of Muhammad in using the term Khatam’u-Nabeein was to suggest the progress of the Islamic nation, and unveil the ascendancy of the station of the Imams in comparison to the prophets of Israel. It is clear to those who are familiar with the Scriptures of the past, who are aware of the events which are associated with the histories of the nations of antiquity that the prophets of Israel, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc… one and all prophesied about the future events according to dreams and visions. And they interpreted their vision or dream as a revelation from God. As a result, the book of these prophets became known as the vision of Isaiah, vision of Daniel, vision of Jeremiah, and vision of Ezekiel. By the same token, if we are to examine this issue from a Christian perspective, the Revelation of St. John is in essence the Dream of John. As a result the term Nabi (Prophet) was given to the ones who prophesied based on visions, or dreams. This usage was solidified during the Jewish and Christians dispensations. However, after the appearance of Prophet Muhammad (Khatam’ul-Anbia), the ender of the prophetic cycle, the era of revelation from God “through the medium of dreams and visions” was ended and a new era of “revelation through direct inspiration” had begun. Viewed from this perspective, we can see that the tradition; “There will be no prophets after me…” was a true statement. -Fara’id, p. 311

    * Excerpts from an article written by Kamran Hakim

    4c. Renewal of Creation

    One way to think of the finality of Prophethood may be, that Muhammad (PBUH), is the Seal of the Prophets until the Day of Resurrection. Whether this means the physical end of the world is discussed further under the topic: Day of Judgment.

    As fervor for the coming millennium has been on the increase among many of our Christian brothers and sisters (with possible implications of the Second Coming of Christ, and the end of the world), we notice to a lesser degree, a parallel increase among some Muslims, of the idea that the Day of Judgment is not very far. They base these beliefs on the appearance of many of the signs of the Day of Judgment, mentioned in the Qur’an and Hadith.

    The possible nearness of the Hour, may give more validity to the notion that there is no further need for divine guidance since the world is coming to an end very soon anyway.

    Others insist that only God knows the time of the end, and it is quite possible that life on this planet may continue for millennia to come. Many of this second group insist however, that the laws of Islam are valid and appropriate for all people, for all times, and all places. When it is pointed out to them that there have not been any societies or countries which practice the Islamic way of life according to the Shari’a (Islamic Jurisprudence) for quite some time now, these people insist that Islam will have a second zenith, even as it had its first zenith during the middle ages when the Islamic Khalifate ruled from Spain to the boarders of China.

    * * * * *
    Others still, have argued that according to the Qur’an, and even when (or if) there is a physical end of some kind, creation is cyclically renewed, and as long as creation continues, humankind will always be in need for guidance, in fulfillment of what is known as the eternal Covenant of God, which He established with humanity: that in return for obedience to His laws and teachings, He would not let us go astray. After all, even angels will continue to need guidance according to the Holy Qur’an:

    “Say, if there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from heaven an angel for an apostle.”
    Qur’an 17:95

    * * * * *
    Some verses from the Holy Qur’an about the continuation and renewal of creation:

    [21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.

    [29.19-20] See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah. Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

    [50.15] Were We then fatigued with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation.
    4d. Prophethood is not to Continue in the Same Fashion as was During the Judaic Dispensation

    Some hadith (tradition of the Prophet) may indicate, that the sealing of the office of prophethood, is to be understood in the light of the manner of, how guidance was continued in previous dispensations, and how that method was changed in Islam.
    Through Muhammad’s revelation the office of prophethood was ended. That is to say, no other prophet like those of Judaism (like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc… ) were to appear. Instead Khalifs (according to Sunni terminology), and Imams (according to Shi’ite usage) appeared. The following Sahih Hadith hints at this issue:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.”

    The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?” He said, “Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfill their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.”
    – Sahih Bukhari 4:661 (see Arabic)

    This issue may be best understood when we study the historical context and the circumstances of the revelation of verse 33:40. Most importantly, the verse itself should not be taken out of the context of the Sura (chapter) which it is a part of.
    The Prophet (PBUH), had adopted Zaid ibn Al-Haritha and treated him as His own son and made him part of His household. The people started calling him Zaid ibn Muhammad. Verses 4 and 5 of the same sura, clearly discourage such practice:

    [33:4]
    YUSUFALI: Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way.
    PICKTHAL: Allah hath not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath He made your wives whom ye declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath He made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouths. But Allah saith the truth and He showeth the way.
    SHAKIR: Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.

    [33:5]
    YUSUFALI: Call them by (the names of) their fathers: that is juster in the sight of Allah. But if ye know not their father’s (names, call them) your Brothers in faith, or your maulas. But there is no blame on you if ye make a mistake therein: (what counts is) the intention of your hearts: and Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
    PICKTHAL: Proclaim their real parentage. That will be more equitable in the sight of Allah. And if ye know not their fathers, then (they are) your brethren in the faith, and your clients. And there is no sin for you in the mistakes that ye make unintentionally, but what your hearts purpose (that will be a sin for you). Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: Assert their relationship to their fathers; this is more equitable with Allah; but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brethren in faith and your friends; and there is no blame on you concerning that in which you made a mistake, but (concerning) that which your hearts do purposely (blame may rest on you), and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    As people were using the name Zaid ibn Muhammad, the expectation of some was also that he would become His successor, as had been the case the prophets of the children of Israel.

    When Zaid divorced his wife, who later was married to the Prophet (PBUH), many people objected to this and expressed their displeasure that He would marry His “son’s” divorced wife, verse 33:40 made it clear that Zaid was neither the Prophet’s son nor was he or anyone else to be a prophet after Him.

    When chapter 33 is read in its entirety, this issue becomes much clearer.

    4e. Passages from Bahá’í Writings on the subject

    Bahá’u’lláh wrote:

    ‘ …how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets?” Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?” Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets” – that is Adam – in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.” .. ‘
    – Book of Certitude *

    Notwithstanding the fact that all the Messengers of God were different individuals, Bahá’ís believe that the Reality of all these Messengers is one and the same in the sense that They all came to reveal aspects of the same Truth, and to help us learn about the one and same God. This is an aspect of the concept of the Oneness of God (Tawheed). In this sense, They were all the beginning and the end as Jesus (PBUH) proclaimed that He was the Alpha and the Omega.

    5. Completion of Religion

    “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.”
    – Qur’an 5:3

    This verse was revealed when the Prophet (PBUH) was on His way back from His last pilgrimage to Mecca (Hujjatu’l Wida’). It is said to be the last verse of the Qur’an to be revealed. It was later included in Suratu’l Ma’ideh (chapter 5) which was originally revealed around the year six or seven AH.

    This verse has been referred to as complementary to verse 33:40 which describes Muhammad (PBUH) as being the “Seal of the prophets”, in that the two verses support the notion that Islam is the final religion. Verse 33:40 has been addressed in other pages on this site.

    As we look at the topic of the completion of religion in the light of the whole Qur’an, we find that religion is described as being completed, in quite a few verses (in addition to verse 5:3).

    For instance, we find that God’s favor was completed at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

    And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
    – Qur’an 12:6

    We also find that God completed His favor through Moses:

    Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favor) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
    – Qur’an 6:154

    According to the Qur’an, the completion of the favor is also conditional upon the individual’s success in obeying and fearing God:

    And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your face towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course.
    – Qur’an 2:150

    Some argue however, that while “completion” of the favor may not be unique to Muslims, “perfection” of the religion is.

    This is a matter of interpretation, and it certainly is the prerogative of the translators to have chosen the word “perfected” for the Arabic word “akmaltu”. For Arabs (and others familiar with the language) however, while the word definitely conveys the meaning of perfection, and wholeness, it is also very often used to mean “completion” as we find in verses: 2:185, 2:196, 2:233, and 16:25 among others.
    This same theme has also caused followers of other religions to believe that their religion was complete, not only for the duration it was destined, but for all times. For example we see that for the Christians, the favors of God were also completed on humanity through Jesus:

    “And ye are complete in Him [i.e. Jesus], which is the head of all principality and power”
    – The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 2

    “Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”
    – The Epistle to the Colossians, Chapter 4

    It is also necessary to remember, that both completeness and perfection are among God’s attributes, integral to His Essence (magnified be His name). It would be blasphemous to doubt that any of His actions and doings or favors, would be anything but complete and perfect:

    It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His Will (in Islam).
    – Qur’an 16:81

    Question: If God has always supplied us with all provisions and needs for every journey we have undertaken, does this in any way preclude His aid and assistance in future journeys? Does it preclude the possibility itself of future journeys?

    As to the mention of Islam as the chosen religion in the same verse (5:3), it is important to remember that while Islam happens to be the religion of “Muslims”, it is also described in numerous verses in the Qur’an as the religion of submission to God, a term much more general, and includes all who submit themselves and will to God.

    Let us also take the Qur’an as a whole entity, and remember the verses which explain that there is a set time for every nation and a set book. Let us also remember to examine the verses which tell us that the words of God are endless and can not be encompassed in one book.

    Let us not forget either the verses that speak of Messengers to come.

    6. Islam. The Religion of Submission to God

    If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
    – Qur’an 3:85

    This translation of verse [3:85] is by the well known scholar (‘Abdullah) Yusuf Ali. In his commentary on this verse (note: 418), Mr. Yusuf Ali writes:

    “The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all Religion is one, for the Truth is one. It was the religion preached by all the earlier prophets. It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of Allah and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. If anyone wants a religion other than that, he is false to his own nature, as he is false to Allah’s Will and Plan. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance.”

    Many verses in the Holy Qur’an explain the meaning of Islam as the one religion of God, revealed to all prophets. Islam is not Muhammdanism. It is the religion of submission to God, though it also is by name, the religion of Muslims.

    “Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause–a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it–verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures. ”
    – Bahá’u’lláh

    7. The Best Ummah

    “You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; …”
    – Qur’an 3:110

    Muslims for centuries rightly claimed this distinction. When the rest of the world rejected God’s latest Messenger, the Muslims obeyed God and accepted Him. When the rest of the world was in the dark ages, Muslims ruled from the shores of Spain to the boarders of China, during which time, the arts and sciences flourished. and the people enjoyed an atmosphere of relative peace and justice.

    Followers of other religions have claimed this same honor as well. The Jews have always called themselves “God’s Chosen People”. The Qur’an itself speaks of a time when this was the case:

    “O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.”
    – Qur’an 2:47

    Yet when Jesus (PBUH) came and they refused to accept him, God conferred the honor on the Christians instead:

    “Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”
    – Qur’an 3:55

    When Muhammad (PBUH) came in fulfillment of the promises of previous religions, to bring new life and new teachings and bring people together in unity, He was rejected by most of the followers of the earlier religions. Those who followed Him became blessed with the new distinction.

    As we read the rest of verse 3:110 however, we may understand that this honor and distinction of being the best of nations, rather than being an absolute, is conditional on, or associated with a certain code of conduct:

    … you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed, it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.
    – Qur’an 3:110

    The relative nature of this statement, may be further understood in the light of other verses in the Qur’an such as:

    “Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah’s purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.”
    – Qur’an 2:143

    The Muslim Ummah can only continue to claim to be the best of nations if it continues to live by the teachings of God.

    The purpose of all religion has been to bring people together in love and unity like brothers and sisters. This is stated in beauty and perfection and in the most eloquent speech in this verse:
    And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah’s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.
    – Qur’an 3:103

    God makes it very clear that He abhors divisions, conflicts, and hatred. A people divided, can not even claim to be followers of the Prophet (PBUH):

    “As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.”
    – Qur’an 6:159

    When the Jews were the only ones who believed in the One True God, they were called His chosen people. When the Christians were the only ones who recognized the glory of Christ, they became His beloved. Neither of the two peoples however, continued in their practices, or showed the same devotion and obedience to the teachings as they did in earlier times. For that we read:

    “And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults?”
    – Qur’an 5:18

    God in His mercy, issued warnings to the Muslims, so they wouldn’t make the same mistakes:

    “And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement. On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved. And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah’s mercy; in it they shall-abide.”
    – Qur’an 3:105-107

    “But the sects disagreed among themselves. Then woe to those who committed evil from the punishment of a painful Day.”
    – Qur’an 43:65

    Moreover, dividing the Ummah (community) into sects is even likened to joining partners with God (shirk), as each sect becomes enamored with its own teachings, and a slave to its own doctrine. God tells us:

    “Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,- Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!”
    – Qur’an 30:31-32

    How about the political (non-sectarian) disunity and hatred among nations calling themselves Muslim by name, yet because of greed and love for power and wealth, have fought amongst themselves causing wars and bloodshed?:

    “Never should a believer kill a believer…”
    – Qur’an 4:92

    “If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.”
    – Qur’an 4:93

    So, can we say today that as a nation, the Muslim Ummah, has continued to adhere to the laws of God, remaining worthy of the honor of being the best of nations?

  79. There are so many historians, Gibbons being the most renown who all say Christianity had a very distinct Dark Ages while Islam flourished, in spite of prejudice and bias. The above link is one.

    MARK KARLIN, EDITOR OF BUZZFLASH AT TRUTHOUT

    Crusaders: There are few Americans — if any but extremist Armageddon (of any religion) and anti-government militia supporters — who feel anything but the deepest of sorrow for the victims of the Boston Marathon apparent religious act of terrorism – conducted by what appear to be a radicalized permanent resident and his younger brother, an American citizen. It was — as was 9/11 — a heinous, shocking act.

    But the insightful Juan Cole puts into perspective that most followers of Islam are peaceful people. The Jihadists and their networks compose a small percentage of believers in the Islamic faith.

    Perhaps it is a little too early to start comparing the death tolls caused by different religious faiths in the last 100 years, but Cole takes a stab at it — and this is what he finds. In the 20th Century, of the estimated (and this is hardly a firm figure, understated if anything) 120 million people who were killed in wars and war-like acts (terrorism is war, generally upon civilians, by a non nation-state) only a small fraction of that figure was the result of Muslim killings. Cole offers a chart that visually displays the dramatic lopsided accountability of Christian nations: mostly those located in Europe plus the US and Canada.

    Many Americans will react with dismay that Cole is setting the record straight. But it is vital to point out that he condemns terrorism and war for empire of any sort. He is simply pointing out that to think that Christianity and Christian nations are more virtuous and less blood thirsty than followers of Islam is statistically incorrect. As Cole concludes in his commentary on relative blood lust in the name of a divine force or nationhood,

    Terrorism is a tactic of extremists within each religion, and within secular religions of Marxism or nationalism. No religion, including Islam, preaches indiscriminate violence against innocents.

    It takes a peculiar sort of blindness to see Christians of European heritage as “nice” and Muslims and inherently violent, given the twentieth century death toll I mentioned above. Human beings are human beings and the species is too young and too interconnected to have differentiated much from group to group. People resort to violence out of ambition or grievance, and the more powerful they are, the more violence they seem to commit. The good news is that the number of wars is declining over time, and World War II, the biggest charnel house in history, hasn’t been repeated.

    Nothing can further exemplify the deep roots of a Christian need to force others to accept Jesus Christ as savior than the gory, bloody rampage of the Crusades, which over years left countless “infidels” slain. Or one can look at the inquisition where non-believers in Christ were tortured and executed.

    Add to that, just for the sake of example, the missionary slaughter that took place when Spain and Portugal colonized Central and South America for Christ (and gold and other riches). Or the savagery of European Christian nations conquering Africa and engaging in slavery.

    No, there are no excuses or sympathy to be expressed for the Tsarnaev brothers. Their act was horrifying, incomprehensible – causing the most profound grief at a finish line that is a symbol of triumph. So are the acts of suicide bombers, bombers of buses, etc. Public acts of terrorism are gruesome, terrifying and heart-wrenching; but so are many acts of war in the name of nationhood, ethnic identity, religion — often all of these together.

    But rather than proceed on another post 9/11 government and FOX/Limbaugh decade of Islamaphobia, we need to look into our own religious and national identities to find pathways toward peace with all religions. Faith in a divine force has been a historical spiritual need for most of the world, but the need to impose a given faith on others has been a ghastly virus that breaks out from time to time. The result is inevitably maiming and a gruesome loss of life.

    There is no virtue in the history of the Christian Western World when it comes to wars and killing. We need to prevent as many acts as we can similar to the Boston Marathon massacre, but to do so, we must also look inside ourselves and recognize that killing under the flag of any religion, nation or tribal identity is abhorrent – whether it be the Tsarnaev brothers or wars for religion, tribal identity (including nationhood) or empire. He actually could have written this for a bigot like you!

  80. Are Christians more violent than Muslims? What does the record say?

    Murder rate: White America, like most Christian countries in the Americas, Africa and Eastern Europe, is markedly more violent than most of the Middle East (murders per 100,000 population):

    0.6 Bahrain
    0.7 Oman
    0.8 United Arab Emirates
    0.9 Qatar
    1.0 Saudi Arabia
    1.2 Egypt
    1.7 Cyprus
    1.8 Jordan
    2.0 Iraq
    2.1 Israel
    2.2 Kuwait
    2.2 Lebanon
    2.3 Syria
    3.0 Iran
    3.3 Turkey
    3.4 WHITE AMERICA
    4.1 Palestine
    4.2 Yemen
    Terrorist attacks: According to the FBI, only 6% of the terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were carried out by Muslim extremists. Even Jewish extremists carried out more (7%).

    War: Wars with at least a million dead:

    Christian wars:

    years: name: conservative body count in millions
    535-554: Gothic Wars: 5.0m
    790-1300: Reconquista: 7.0m
    1096-1272: Crusades: 2.0m
    1337-1453: Hundred Years’ War: 3.0m
    1562-1598: French Wars of Religion: 3.0m
    1568-1648: Dutch Revolt: 1.0m
    1618-1648: Thirty Years’ War: 3.0m
    1655-1660: Second Northern War: 3.0m
    1763-1864: Russian-Circassian War: 2.0m
    1792-1802: French Revolutionary Wars: 2.0m
    1803-1815: Napoleonic Wars: 3.5m
    1830-1903: War in Venezuela: 1.0m
    1882-1898: Conquests of Menelik II of Ethiopia: 5.0m
    1910-1920: Mexican Revolution: 1.0m
    1914-1918: First World War: 20.0m
    1917-1922: Russian Civil War: 5.0m
    1939-1945: Second World War: 41.5m (European deaths only)
    1946-1954: First Indochina War: 1.0m
    1950-1953: Korean War: 1.2m
    1955-1975: Vietnam War: 1.1m
    1998-2003: Second Congo War: 2.5m
    Muslim wars:

    1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
    1681-1707: Conquests of Aurangzeb: 5.0m
    1967-1970: Nigerian Civil War: 1.0m
    1980-1988: Iran-Iraq War: 1.0m
    1983-2005: Second Sudanese Civil War: 1.0m
    1989-2001: Afghan Civil War: 1.4m
    Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.

    There are more Christians, but only about 50% more, nothing like seven times more.

    Western history is Eurocentric, so we know more about wars in Christian lands than in Muslim ones. But not for wars since 1900, and there the imbalance is even worse: 73.3 million compared to 4.4 millon – 17 times more dead in Christian wars.

    Some blame technology, yet the Muslim world has all the weapons the West had to kill over 100 million people. And yet it did not.

    Democide: counts those who died not through war or street crime but through the wilful in/action of government, like genocide or Mao’s Great Leap Forward.

    Christian democides of a million or more (does not count communist democides):

    940-1917: Russia (tsarist): 2.1m
    1095-1272: Crusades: 1.0m
    1451-1870: European slave trade: 17.3m
    1492-1900: Latin America: 13.8m Amerindians
    1600-1900: Caribbean: 10.0m slaves worked to death
    1618-1648; Thirty Years War: 5.8m
    1651-1987: British Empire: 1.1m (not counting slavery)
    1800-1900: Brazil: 1.5m Amazon rubber companies
    1900-1920: Mexico: 1.4m
    1933-1945: Germany (Nazis): 20.9m
    1945-1948: Poland: 1.6m
    Muslim democides of a million or more:

    400-1900: Iran: 2.0m
    1110-1918: Ottoman Empire: 3.9m
    1958-1987: Pakistan: 1.5m
    1983-2005: Sudan: 1.9m Nuer, Dinka, Christians, Nuba, etc
    Christians have killed eight times more people in democides than Muslims: 76.5 million compared to 9.3 million. Almost the same rate as for war.

    The mistake here lies not in the numbers but in the words “Christian” and “Muslim”. Sometimes religion is a cause – or at least an excuse – like in the bombings by Christian extremist Eric Rudolph or the genocide in Sudan. But most often it is not. Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.

    Sources: Wikipedia, R.J. Rummel, FBI, Loonwatch, U.S. Department of Justice, List of countries by intentional homicide rate.

    See also:

    wilfully obtuse
    Orientalism
    Islamophobia
    democide
    genocide
    Eric Rudolph
    9/11
    Tamerlane
    Hitler
    Sudan
    reading while white: history and news
    reading while white: crime statistic

    Is Islam violent? – wherein I argue the Muslim world has become more violent over the past 30 years but that religion is not the main reason for it.

  81. What religions since 700 AD has been more peace-loving and less murderous?

  82. YOU SAID
    Are Christians more violent than Muslims? What does the record say?
    Murder rate: White America, like most Christian countries in the Americas, Africa and Eastern Europe, is markedly more violent than most of the Middle East (murders per 100,000 population):

    MY RESPONSE :
    This such a wonderfully fantastical distortion and morose misrepresentation of christianity you have stated so far .

    There one fatal error in this claim that no sensible observer of history should overlook ; i that these crimes committed by these people were in fact even Christian to begin with .

    This is such an overreach that no sane person could and should take any these claims as having any basis in truth

  83. YOU SAID :
    There is only one small passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible that is generally used by trinity adherents to support the trinity doctrine. This passage is found in 1 John 5:7-8, and is bracketed in the following quotation: “For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The bracketed words were added by editors to the Latin Vulgate translation probably in the early fourth century. They do not appear in any of the older Greek manuscripts nor in other modern English translations. They were added to the Latin Vulgate during the heat of the controversy between Rome and Dr. Arius and God’s people.

    M RESPONSE :
    I love this . I think really don’t think you understand what it means when something is bracketed in scripture

    Well let me explain to you what it means : It means that it is not part of the canon of scripture by an assertion or clarification of the text .

    All you have done here is present a strawman fallacy concerning the Gospel .

    Nobody inserted anything into the Gospel .

    Very bad argument from a very bad source

  84. YOU SAID :
    Christ is not the Prince of Peace – He told believers He didn’t come to bring peace, just a sword of truth to divide people. You know what happened. Baha’u’llah came to bring peace through unity. Big difference. The Baha’i Faith is undivided – there’s an addition to the Covenant which prevents that – something no prior religion had.

    MY RESPONSE :
    I am assuming that this is one of the bahai claims that the

    But lets have a look at this prophecy n more detail

    Isaiah 9:6
    …5For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.…

    Bahais claim that this prophecy doesn’t belong to Christ for the following reasons

    1 The government doesn’t rest on Christ shoulders
    2 christ said that he didn’t come to bring peace

    The problem is that if we use this very narrow understanding of Christ it is possible to see how this mistake could be made . But there is problem with that because it doesn’t really take into account

    1. Christ did bring peace :
    But now in Christ Jesus you[Gentiles] who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. (Ephesians 2:13-18 RSV)

    and

    ROMANS 5:1-5
    5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

    The peace that Christ bring is a peace of the heart in the knowledge of his universal salvation through the cross .

    Christ does not bring universal peace because the has an adversary in the person of SATAN who is active in the world

    Christ offers us peace in the must of suffering and trials which no human is free from

    2 . the government does rest on his shoulders
    Christ who is the eternal Son , and who is the creator of the universe keeps everything in order through his holding all in his power

    COLOSSIANS 1:7
    The Supremacy of Christ
    …16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.…

    3. He is Mighty God and everlasting Father

    This is further proof of this prophecy relating to Christ and can only be about him

    Christians are the ones who recognise Christ as God eternal and I would just love to quote John 1:1 again because its my favourite

    JOHN 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    So Bahaullah cannot be be the fulfilment of this prophecy and as I have said before , the Bahai’s rob titles from Christ and erroneously apply them the Bahaullah ..

  85. And to further consolidate the the texts we can then look at the continuation of the prophecy of Isaiah

    ISAIAH 9:7
    7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

    Further more the book of revelation reveals that Christ has indeed ascended to his everlasting throne of david and he is the key of David

    REVEALATION 22:16

    …15But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.” 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.…

    The peace that Christ brings is the peace that we re assured of that comes through his death , resurrection and ascension into heaven and his fulfilment or the prophecy of Isaiah

  86. The proofs of Baha’u’llah and His Station are manifest to those who see, unfortunately you are blind and you have continued to misinterpret scripture as the above interpretations show so clearly. I am wasting my precious time trying to help you see that. Sadly, you are stuck in a pre-Medieval time warp, believing Catholicism is something it no longer is, that is for certain.

    You believe in a God with a small g., who is sending all the devout and holy believers of all the world religions to hell if they might not believe in Jesus but devoutly follow their own Messengers. God is an all loving and forgiving God with a big G. He is one and His religions are one and no one gets to the single Father except through the Intermediaries He has sent in different times in History. Get real!!

    Clearly the reason for the many divisions of Christianity and the different world religions is twofold: 1, Progressive Revelation (God speaks to humankind with a new Messenger every time civilization has reached a low point). There are many Manifestations which like days of the week, different names but all are days of the week. Sadly their followers cling to their older faiths being blind to the new Messengers and His renewal of the Old and bringing of the new social teachings for that time in history; and 2. Human reification and misinterpretation of scripture by the older religions by its followers (you being a classic example), causing divisions between Protestants and Catholics, Shiites and Sunni etc. The differences you see in the God’s Messengers are man-made, just like the divisions of Christianity and the bloodshed over religion caused more by Catholics and Christians than any other world religions.

    I noticed the facts I provided you of Christianity leading all religions in murders and wars, gives you no ground to attack Islam or any other world religion. Of course Christ never taught such violence but His followers have missed His message of love and brotherhood, as those terrible statistics I provided you show. The same applies to Muhammad. He did correct the Trinity idea and brought us nationhood, consolidating the tribes in a nation. But divisions between Ali and Omar, like between those who follow Peter versus Paul, have divided Islam. The Baha’i Faith brings unity for followers of both these great world religions, there is no other way in this time of a dying Old World Order and the gradual development of Gods New World Order or the “New Jerusalem.” The day that will not be followed by night.

    So there is a gradual process of decay of the Old World institutions and growth of God’s Kingdom on earth brought by the Glory of God, the 5th Buddha of Universal Brotherhood and the Promised One of all major religions. Its not coincidence that Baha’u’llah was banished to prison in Israel and was let out of prison to pitch His tent on Mt. Carmel. At the base of the mountain are the blind Christian Templars, you being among them but Catholic. If you read the books, He Cometh in Clouds or Thief in the Night, they show you all the Bible prophecies are fulfilled. There is support for slavery in both the New and Old Testament, Baha’u’llah was the first Messenger to abolish slavery. Moreover, His principles of the three onenesses: God, His Messengers and humankind is central to a religion that teaches unity. His many other principles of the harmony of science and religion, universal auxiliary language, elimination of religion (which you need) prejudices and all prejudices, the equality of men and women, the elimination of clergy, universal weights and measures, a world government (no coincidence that the United Nations developed after His declaration) and many more are beginning to take hold.

    I just read another of many Christian, not just Baha’i or Muslim, sites that testify with bible proof to the singleness of God and dispels the man made idea of the trinity that you espouse, see its link below. We thank God for science and theology in this day for these insights that give the world hope among the endlessly divided Christianity (38,000 denominations and growing in divisions day by day):

    http://www.theway.org/GodSays.php?page=GodSays_14

  87. His Light is manifest but you walk in darkness??????

    “…Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity. Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness, and a home to the stranger.
    Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew to the soil of the human heart…”. Bahá’u’lláh

  88. http://ungb.org/info/resurrection.pdf

    http://bahai-library.com/terry_truth_triumphs

    A Baha’i response to Catholic or other Christian sects claims through a fellow named Beckwith in this article, it should help you with your misinterpretation of Isaiah 9:6.and scores of other bible prophecies, too many to mention. I strongly suggest you read the first link very carefully, it should clear up the murky water you have created with yourself on Christian topics which essentially are ONLY the interpretations of the bible by Christian clerics, 38,000 of which are in disagreement. So you have many Christians with your own religions who will not agree with your Trinity ideas nor your interpretations. You deny the import of the Reformation, Counter Reformation and the continual divisions of Chrisitanity as proof of its diversity of bible beliefs and interpretations but YOU insist my interpretations of the bible are wrong, oh well.

  89. Objections of Christians and Catholics to Bahá’u’lláh Are the Same as Those to Christ

    If thou wishest to find truth, compare the days of the Manifestation of Abhá with the days of Christ; consider this is identically like that and the same doubts and oppositions are put forth. (BWF, p 387)

    I. Can’t add anything to the New Testament according to (Rev 22:18-19; Matt 5:18; Gal 1:8) therefore Bahá’í Writings can’t be scripture.

    A. But Old Testament also states it cannot be added unto (Deut 4:2; 12:32) which would disallow New Testament as Scripture by this same reasoning, (see Can’t Add to the Bible or Preach Any Other Gospel, (p 34)

    B. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb 13:8) (see Yesterday, Today
    and Forever, (p 22) (Certainly the physical body of Jesus did change as He grew to
    manhood; and Jesus as the Word of God also changed as Jesus did change the laws of
    Moses and, therefore, the Word of God given to the Jews.)

    II. But not all prophecies of the New Testament are literally fulfilled by Bahá’u’lláh.

    A. But Jesus did not literally fulfill all the prophecies of the Old Testament either. Jesus
    Himself interprets prophecy not literally but as spiritually fulfilled.
    1. Elijah was to return before the Messiah (Malachi 4:5): John the Baptist, when asked
    by the Jews, said he was not Elijah (John 1:21) yet Jesus interprets spiritually that John
    the Baptist was the return of Elijah (Matt 17:10-13) clarifying the literal expectation of
    the Jews was an incorrect interpretation.
    2. Messiah was to come from an unknown place Can anything good come out of
    Nazareth? (John 1:46). The Jews said, Yet we know where this man comes from; and
    when the Christ appears, no one will know where He comes from. So Jesus proclaimed
    … You know me, and you know where I come from? But I have not come of my
    own accord; He who sent Me is true, and Him you do not know. (John 7:27-29)
    (Again, Jesus Himself interprets spiritually and not literally.)
    3. Jesus was not literally of the lineage of David of the fruit of thy body (Psalms
    132:11): The Gospels trace Jesus’ lineage to King David through Joseph but Joseph was
    not the father of Jesus. (Mary was not of David’s heritage per Who’s Who in the Bible,
    p 281, and nowhere in the Bible is Mary of David’s lineage.)
    4. Messiah was to live forever: He said this to show by what death he was to die. The
    crowd answered Him, We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? (John 12:33-3
    4). (Again, only a spiritual fulfillment can make sense as Jesus did die physically.)
    5. Messiah’s name was to be Emmanuel, not Jesus: Now all this was done that it might
    be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, ‘Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.’ (Matt 1:23)… and he (Joseph) called his name Jesus
    (Matt 1:25). (Jesus means “he who saves.” Once again, the Bible uses names as titles
    and not as literal requirement for prophecy to be fulfilled. Hence Bahá’u’lláh’s name
    does appear in the New Testament and Old Testament (e.g., Glory of the Lord), just as
    Jesus of Nazareth took the title Christ, Emmanuel, etc. See also quotes in Bahá’u’lláh’s
    Name Mentioned in the Bible (p 58) and No Other Name Under Heaven. (p 25)
    Page -19-
    6. Messiah was to sit on the throne of David and reestablish the glory of the Jews (Amos
    9:14-15): (Only a spiritual interpretation of “throne of David” allows fulfillment).
    7. Messiah was to carry a sword and defeat enemies of God’s Chosen People (Isaiah
    66:16): (Jesus had not a physical sword but the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of
    God. (Eph 6:17) which triumphed over all. Again, only a spiritual interpretation allows
    fulfillment.)

    B. Apostles Luke and Peter also interpret prophecy as fulfilled spiritually when clearly they weren’t literally:
    1. The Glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together … Every valley
    shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low (Isaiah 40:4-5) (Luke says all this was fulfilled when it clearly was not literally: As it is written in the book of
    the words of Isaiah the prophet …Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low … and all flesh shall see the salvation of God… (Luke 3:4-6)
    (Clearly we still have valleys and mountains and all flesh did not see Jesus physically.) The above spiritual interpretation applies to the prophecy Christians claim Bahá’u’lláh must fulfill literally: “Every eye shall see Him” just as “all flesh shall see it together.” (see Every Eye Shall See Him, (p 26).

    2. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come (Joel 2:31). In Acts the preceding is recounted as
    having been fulfilled: But Peter;.. said unto them … For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel… I shall pour out my Spirit upon all flesh … And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:14-21) (No historic record recounts any
    eclipse of the sun or the moon literally becoming blood which would of course be impossible to see in any form if the sun were dark as the moon only reflects the light of the sun. Also, clearly not “all flesh” literally witnessed. I shall pour out my Spirit upon
    all flesh.) (See Pentecost, p 26)

    III. But Bahá’u’lláh Changes the Laws of Christ which are to be the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb 13:8)
    But Christ changed the law of the Sabbath (Matt 12: 1) which was to be a sign forever between me and the people of Israel (Exod 31:17). Christ also changed the laws of marriage and divorce (Matt 19:7-9) and eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth (Matt 5:38-42)
    announcing He was changing the law as He spoke. Yet the Old Testament clearly states You shall not add to the word I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the
    commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. (Deut 4:2) (see p 22)

    IV. Miracles of Christ are “best” (e.g., “Jesus rose from the dead! Where is Bahá’u’lláh buried?”)

    A. But whose miracle is best when they are equally unexplainable? … Jews saw Page -20-
    splitting of the Red Sea as “best” as there would otherwise have been no Jesus and this provided a literal salvation of the Jews which they were expecting the Messiah to provide again by destroying the enemies of Israel.

    B. Many rose from the dead in both the Old Testament and New Testament (Matt 27:52; Heb 11:35 ; Eze 37:11-14, etc.) so not a unique miracle.

    C. Miracle is not a proof all that one says is true or a proof in itself (e.g., if someone said 1+1=3 and disappeared in a puff of smoke, it would not make the 1+1=3.)

    D. A false prophet can show miracles too: …false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matt 24:23) (Miracles can be used in support of a false prophet.)

    E. Pharisees and miracles of Christ were done by power of Beelzebub (Matt 12:24)
    (Therefore, a miracle doesn’t prove the source is Godly.)

    F. Proof of a prophet is His fruits (Matt 7:15 and Gal 5:22) and that He spiritually heals
    you. All prophets have miracles in their ministry and all miracles are equally
    unexplainably phenomenal making it difficult to rank “best.”

    G. New Testament states anyone of great faith can perform miracles, (1 Cor 12:8- 10)

    H. See quotes in Miracle is Not the Best Proof (p 38) and Resurrection, (p 40)
    III

  90. YOU SAID Dr J
    Objections of Christians and Catholics to Bahá’u’lláh Are the Same as Those to Christ.

    MY RESPONSE :
    No they are not .the parallels are superficial at best

    When Christ appeared on this earth he was the fulfilment of Jewish prophecy concerning the Christ or the Promised One .Those prophets who came before Jesus were NOT the promised one so there is no conflict between Christ and the OT figures

    Rather Jesus , without diminishing the prophets of old , fulfils Literally and Spiritually the old testament prophecies .

    Jesus does not abolish the law ( OT ) he fulfils it without diminishing the greatness of the prophets But rather fulfills them in typology as well as prophetically

    Christ typological fulfilment alone without any reference to his prophetic fulfilment renders the claims of parallelism redundant

    There was no conflict between Moses and Christ as there is present in the Bahai between Bahaullah and Jesus

    Bahai’s have , on the other hand , rejected the deeds of Christ as well as ascribing meanings to him that are an impoverished view of Christ . This idea of SPIRITUAL ONLY FULFILMENT is just one in a line of many rejections of Christ’ TRUE STATION.

    1 . A rejection of his TRUE divinity as God in the Fullest sense
    2 A rejection of Christ ONCE and FOR ALL sin atonement
    3 . A rejection of his BODILY Resurrection

    Nor does Jesus try and rob prophecies from the OT that actually belong to someone else as Bahia’s have tried to do with Jesus . We have in the Bahai Faith this duality of DIMINISHING and STEALING from Christ which is has no parallel with Jesus and his contemporaries at all

    Jesus Christ was not claiming he was Moses returned which is in stark contrast to belief that Bahaullah is Christ returned

    So we don’t have the conflict of persons claiming titles against another with Christ and Moses as we do with Bahaullah and Jesus .

    Christians reject Bahaullah for very different reasons than the jews did Jesus and any similarities are superficial at best , and a closer look revels the absurdity of this claim

  91. Secondly , I am Glad to set the record straight concerning this idea of “Spiritual only” fulfilment of Christ .

    Lets really examine this claim to see if it actually makes sense

    YOU SAID:
    2. Messiah was to come from an unknown place Can anything good come out of
    Nazareth?

    (John 1:46). The Jews said, Yet we know where this man comes from; and
    when the Christ appears, no one will know where He comes from. So Jesus proclaimed.

    … You know me, and you know where I come from? But I have not come of my
    own accord; He who sent Me is true, and Him you do not know. (John 7:27-29)
    (Again, Jesus Himself interprets spiritually and not literally.)

    MY RESPONSE ;
    Christ words are meant to be understood as Jesus having NOT just coming from a LITERAL , physical place , or family , but also from all eternity from the Father

    That is why Jesus said you do not where I come from

    Jesus is not calling or suggesting that he ONLY fulfils scripture in a purely Spiritual sense , and to suggest otherwise is to overlook the fact that Jesus did actually LITERALLY fulfilled many OT prophecy as I just explained earlier . Jesus does not fulfilled scripture in an exclusively SPIRiTUAL sense , and neither does he fulfilled the scriptures in an exclusively LITERAL sense .

    Christ fulfils the scriptures , SPIRITUALLY and LITERALLY

    Jesus could not possible have meant this to be the case. He is not asking us to interpret every scriptural passage regarding OT fulfilment being purely SPIRITUAL sense to the exclusion of the LITERAL FULFILMENT

    Even if SPIRITUAL realities , symbolism or metaphor are intermingled with prophecy , that does not mean that we exclude a LITERAL sense in favour of a spiritual only sense .

    The spiritual elements of Prophecy point to a greater reality than a mere earthly one , and thats why we have this duality of Spiritual and Literal meaning of prophecy . It is to demonstrate that Christ is not just an earthly figure like MOSES , NOAH , ABRAHAM or KING DAVID , but he fulfils and completes all these types and reigns supreme in the heavenly realm too

    In fact , a literal fulfilment would be quite meaningless in there was no Spiritual or heavenly fulfilment too , and that is the point of the book of Revelation

    Revelation shows us that there is a genuine Heavenly Realm where Christ reigns as everlasting King and rules over all the nations

    Jesus does LITERALLY rule all the nations , just not in a way that we can clearly perceive. But that does not mean that he does not LITERALLY rule

    The other problem is that we believe that the prophecies are only ever meant to be fulfilled literally , then we are placing the prophecies into a box of that is one dimensional .

    Prophecies often have a SPIRITUAL and LITERAL element , and so if such a prophecy is to be fulfilled then it must do so SPIRITUALLY and LITERALLY

    Lets have a look further at this claim :

    King Davids throne is to be forever and Jesus is the one to receive it

    LUKE1:32
    …31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you shall give Him the name Jesus. (LITERALLY FULFULLED) 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. LITERALLY FULFILLED.
    The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David SPIRITUALLY AND LITERALLY FULFILLED33
    and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”…LITERALLY AND SPIRITUALLY FULFILLED

    Notice how Jesus fulfils this prophecy in a complete sense both Spiritually and Literally . Notice too that the Angel tells Mary that David is Jesus father . This can only mean that Jesus is a LITERAL descendant and son of David , but of course he is also the SPIRITUAL and eternal Son of the Father in heaven

    In fact Mathews Genealogy tells us that Mary is also a descendant of David . Mary’s lineage is absolutely legitimate even though the males where the ones that were LEGALLY recognised . She nevertheless has her BLOOD LINEAGE in the house of David , She is no less a descendant of David and just because she is a woman does not disqualify her from being a blood descendant of David

    Christ therefore is in fact a LITERAL descendant of David

    What does Spiritual fulfilment and literal fulfilment really mean in prophecy .

    Spiritual fulfilment and literal fulfilment are not mutually exclusive .

    The prophecies themselves are NOT mutually exclusive either

    We need to avoid this narrow biblical exegesis of ascribing mutually exclusive definitions such as SPIRITUAL FULFILMENT ONLY to the exclusion of a more complete understanding

  92. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

    There are remarkable similarities that scholars, unlike you, of comparative world religions say between Jesus, His life and miracles and other Manifestations of God or Messengers of world religions lives. I do not believe that nor want to implicate that the bible does not contain the words of God nor that Jesus was not divine in that He contained all the attributes of God but of course not His essence, a heresy that you want to continue, regardless of what Muhammad and Baha’u’llah both have clarified.

    From ideas of the trinity to stories of the resurrection of the Prophet into heaven, there are huge similarities between Jesus and Buddha, Krishna and Zoroaster for example. I suggest you research and read some of the many books that do this scholarly work in order to educate yourself. Lets just compare Krishna–the Messenger of the Hindu religion, which predates Jesus by thousands of years:

    Implications of points of similarity between the lives of Jesus and Krishna:

    Krishna is the second person of the Hindu Trinity. He is considered to be one of the incarnations of the God Vishnu. Some Hindus believe that he lived on Earth during perhaps the 2nd or 3rd century BCE. However, “Traditional belief based on scriptural details and astrological calculations gives Krishna’s birth” year as 3228 BCE. 12 Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth is generally regarded as having been born in Palestine circa 4 to 7 BCE. Thus, if there are many points of similarities between these two individuals, most skeptics and some religious liberals would accept that elements of Krishna’s life were incorporated into the legends associated with Jesus rather than vice-versa.

    Other reasons for the similarities between Jesus and Krishna’s life stories on Earth have been suggested which are more acceptable to conservative Christians who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, in the inspiration of the Bible’s authors by God, and in the belief that Jesus is God’s only son and the world’s only savior:

    Legends of Krishna’s life are lies which Satan created to discredit Christianity in advance of Jesus’ birth.

    The similarities in the two lives are simple coincidences.

    Krishna’s life was a type of prophecy foretelling the arrival of the Christian Messiah.

    horizontal rule

    Correspondences between events in Jesus’ and Krishna’s life:

    Author Kersey Graves (1813-1883), a Quaker from Indiana, compared Jesus’s and Krishna’s life. He found what he believed were 346 elements in common within Christian and Hindu writings. 1 That appears to be overwhelming evidence that incidents in Jesus’ life were copied from Krishna’s. However, many of Graves’ points of similarity are a real stretch.

    He did report some amazing coincidences:

    #6 & 45: Jesus and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.

    7: Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.

    8 & 46: Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.

    13, 15, 16 & 23: His adoptive human father was a carpenter.

    18: A spirit or ghost was their actual father.

    21: Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.

    27 & 28: Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.

    30 to 34: Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura.

    41 & 42: Both Jesus and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.

    56: Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.”

    58: Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.”

    60: Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.”

    64: Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.

    66: Both were “without sin.”

    72: Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.

    76, 77, & 78: They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

    83, 84, & 85: Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.”

    86 & 87: Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.

    101: Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.

    109 to 112: Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.

    115: Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.

    121 to 127: Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies.

    128 to 131: Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.

    Krishna, Buddha and Zoroaster predate Jesus but stories and accounts of their lives and their teachings parallel many of Jesus’ stories, miracles and teachings. I think all of their blessed lives contained lots of similarities and some differences as well. My point is that all the Manifestations of God are one and all come from ONE God not three, they have come up with trinity ideas as well. I hope you get my point.

    This is in no way to say what is reported of Jesus and His life is literally or figuratively not true. However, there is evidence that the exclusivity claims to Jesus miracles described above were reported to have happened with other Manifestations of God. I suggest you do some search of books paralleling these Manifestations, there are many. This only supports the truth of the oneness of God’s Messengers and that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all major older world religions. My chapter on eschatology of world religions in the Encyclopedia of Death and Human Experience, I actually wrote with a Catholic Philosophy Scholar shows remarkable similarities in alot of the end of the world ideas with these faiths as well.

  93. http://www.jesusisbuddha.com/

    http://buddhajesuscourse.com/

    These two Buddhist and Christian comparison sites might help you. Ask yourself Is this all just a historical exercise, or are there some conclusions that can be drawn from this study of the lives of the Manifestations of God representing the religions of Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity? The evidence makes it abundantly clear that the three major monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam owe much of its existence to a common source: God. Thus, should not unity (where it can be found) be stressed more than division. Is it not senseless to shun or persecute others whose traditions may be different in the face of the reality that all of these traditions have evolved and adapted over time from common backgrounds? These sites and scores of ones like them have made it obvious that while doctrinal difficulties may never be resolved among these world religions, respect and tolerance needs to be practiced. Like Cain and Abel, all three are sons of the same father. While the world now views Zoroastrianism as a small minor religion, existing in isolated pockets in Iran and India, its flame ignited the spark of the Judeo-Christian faith and ethic that shaped western civilization. The stories of Buddha and Krishna’s lives on earth certainly parallel the life of Jesus, whats fact or fiction only future scholars will be able to show. Nevertheless, it all supports the oneness of God’s Messengers.

  94. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism

    Summary: You want us all to believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and the Catholic Church provides the only true Christian teachings. Your entire website has a goal of attacking Baha’u’llah, a goal which will never work, because He is the Promised One and the return of the spirit of Jesus, your efforts to prove otherwise will only support the growth of the Baha’i Faith. Already it is second to Christianity in diffusion of believers worldwide. Baha’is are in every country and pioneers are only going to spread the good news regardless of hate mongers like you and your dreadful website.

    Therefore, you have either directly or indirectly tried to dispel the validity of ALL the Protestant churches and all the World Religions besides the Baha’i Faith and its claims. Your arrogance and irrationality in such claims is nothing short of sad.

    If you read the above, its clear that by the time of the Protestant revolt, the Catholic Church had been corrupted in many ways–as you yourself can read in the above Wikipedia site. My contention is that 600 years after Christ died, spurious conclusions were drawn from the Council of Nicea (a group of men who came up with the notion of the Trinity). Hence, what was once was the true Church of Christianity had departed and morphed considerably by that very council. Corruption entered in and it formed the basis for the Protestant Reformation, which you contend had no basis for their complaints–wow, that is arrogant. A similar trend occurred with the split between Ali and Omar and the divisions of Islam as well.

    Conclusion: The Baha’i Faith is the only religion in the world which promotes the oneness of God, the oneness of His Manifestations and the oneness of humankind. Its the ONLY faith which promotes unity. I will go to God through this Message, its the only hope for this corrupted world.

  95. DR J I have utterly destroys your bogus interpretations of scripture with regards to this SPIRITUAL ONLY fantasy

    I gave very clear specific insightful and irrefutable arguments .

    These false interpretation are what REAL CORRUPTION is all about

    Remember that Satan is the Father of Lies

    Secondly , your claim of church corruption is very subjective . When Christ promised to safe guard his church for all time , it was from the corruption of the teaching of error

    Christianity has not morphed and the development of doctrine is not a corruption , but a deeper understanding .

    Christ gave Peter , a sinner , the keys to the kingdom of heaven , even though Christ knew he would desert him at the passion .Why would Christ give someone who was about to run away such authority .

    The reason is because the office which he was to hold would be dafe guarded from error in spite of the sinfulness of the one that holds this office

  96. To answer your question regarding Buddhism , Zoroarstrianism and Hinduism as having come from God is demonstrably false . To say that any of these religions comes from God is to completely overlook what all three of these religions teach

    , These religion do actually teach the things that there founders taught .I suggest to you that they have NOT altered their teachings , especially the ones in regard to the nature of God .

    The only possibility Dr J is that these are religions of men and do not have their origins in the Divine .

    The only way Bahai’s can somehow reconcile this obvious diversion and dissimilarity is to say that they have corrupted their original beliefs .

    But als , this is view is totally unprovable and it doesn’t make sense that all three of these religions have such very different views of God .

  97. Your arguments are simplistic and totally satanic to be honest. Anyone who supports attacking a Manifestation of God as this website does, is Satanic and you will find that out in the next world. Satan, look in the mirror its you. Your arrogance is incredible to believe that all Protestants and all members of all other world religions are from Satan, give me a break, you are arrogant and delusional.

    The Protestants had real reasons for protesting, they focused on corruption of the Church, read the link above. They had legitimate and divine reasons for breaking away from papal authority.

    Muhammad came for a Divine reason to establish nationhood and to return religion to monotheism instead of trinity doctrine. Hence, its impact on science, art and world is huge and beyond reproach. Islam is from God. The trinity is false doctrine.

    God comes to the world at different stages in history after periods of time to bring new revelation. Jews believe the same as you, you cannot add to their Torah book, it was sufficient, so you arguments don’t hold water..

  98. And yes , Christ gave us a Church and he promised he would never abandon his Church and he gave this church the powers to bind and loose , to forgive sins or retain them .

    And yes the catholic Church is safeguarded from the errors that other religions teach

    And yes Jesus is the only way to the Father because it is only through his vicarious atonement that any person can enter heaven …period .

    That does not exclude people from other faiths who have lived a good and moral life from obtaining heaven , but they still owe Christ the debt of Gratitude for his ONCE and FOR ALL atonement and redemption which he has paid for each and every person in all of history .

    Again this is another item that the Bahai’s reject of Christ

    The Bahai faith is not the only religion that promotes unity , and it certainly is not the only or first religion to preach the oneness of mankind

    Christianity didn’t spread across the entire globe for no reason .It did so because of the need to reconcile ALL PEOPLE with God , Thus all men are ONE and EQUAL before God

    You really need to stop making yourself out to be a victim in all this .

    Nobody has attacked another faith more than you have on this site .

    I am here to make sure that the Church is defended

  99. No the protestants had NO legitimate reason fro breaking away from the Papacy . The fruits of protestantism are self evident ,……… 38,000 denominations testify to this fact ..

    But The catholic church remains and so does the Papacy .

    Again you have misrepresented the Christian teaching on the trinity sin order to legitimise the teachings of Mohammed

    WE do believe ONE GOD . Islam seems unable to grasp this very basic fact .

    You say that my arguments are simplistic and Satanic and that i will find out in the next world

    My rebuttals are concise , not simplistic , and very easy to follow . There is a huge difference between the two . There is no need for great dissertations and lectures which are really just an over saturation of information and completely inappropriate for a blog post .

    As far as being satanic goes ,and my being arrogant .Well I invite you to look into the mirror also , and perhaps go back and re-read some of your comments

    God come into this world in the Person of Christ and he himself is Gods revelation to the world

  100. The Baha’i prayers and writings are the most advanced in religious history. This prayer written for a believer named Ahmad is addressed to you Jay, most significant for you is this quote: “Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.” Here it is for sincere ones with eyes to see, for the blind there is only darkness:

    Tablet of Ahmad:

    He is the King, the All-Knowing, the Wise! Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise singeth upon the twigs of the Tree of Eternity, with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming to the sincere ones the glad tidings of the nearness of God, calling the believers in the Divine Unity to the court of the Presence of the Generous One, informing the severed ones of the message which hath been revealed by God, the King, the Glorious, the Peerless, guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to this resplendent Beauty.

    Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers, through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested. Verily He is the Tree of Life that bringeth forth the fruits of God, the Exalted, the Powerful, the Great.

    O Ahmad! Bear thou witness that verily He is God and there is no God but Him, the King, the Protector, the Incomparable, the Omnipotent. And that the One Whom He hath sent forth by the name of ‘Alí¹ was the true One from God, to Whose commands we are all conforming.

    Say: O people be obedient to the ordinances of God, which have been enjoined in the Bayán by the Glorious, the Wise One. Verily He is the King of the Messengers and His book is the Mother Book did ye but know.

    Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.

    O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

    Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.

    O Ahmad! Forget not My bounties while I am absent. Remember My days during thy days, and My distress and banishment in this remote prison. And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee.

    Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones, and be not of those who doubt.

    And if thou art overtaken by affliction in My path, or degradation for My sake, be not thou troubled thereby.

    Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

    Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

    Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

    Learn well this Tablet, O Ahmad. Chant it during thy days and withhold not thyself therefrom. For verily, God hath ordained for the one who chants it, the reward of a hundred martyrs and a service in both worlds. These favors have We bestowed upon thee as a bounty on Our part and a mercy from Our presence, that thou mayest be of those who are grateful.

    By God! Should one who is in affliction or grief read this Tablet with absolute sincerity, God will dispel his sadness, solve his difficulties and remove his afflictions.

    Verily, He is the Merciful, the Compassionate. Praise be to God, the Lord of all the worlds.

    Bahá’u’lláh

  101. Jay, I hope the love of God can enter your heart. Baha’u’llah tells us: “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promise of God, as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let you ears be attentive unto his Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause. – Baha’u’llah

    This is quite a remarkable claim made by Baha’u’llah. As a Baha’i I have come to believe that He is the manifestation of God for this age and the return of Jesus Christ foretold in the Bible. Christians have every right to be skeptical of this claim, for there are many warnings of false prophets in the New Testament. This essay is an exploration of Baha’u’llahs claim in light of the biblical writings concerning the nature of Jesus’s return, and the reality of false prophets.

    The Return of the Jesus

    Throughout the Bible, there are many promises that Jesus will return. Probably the most fantastic mention, one that conjures up images of a sudden and awful cataclysmic event is:

    “For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be…But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:27-30

    It is quite a leap of faith to interpret these images literally. If stars literally fell from the sky, the planet would be burned up before they made contact….Luckily for those of us who believe in the laws of physics, there is much biblical evidence that this fantastic image of return is not to be taken literally. Consider the story of Elijah. The Old Testament speaks of the ascension of Elijah, much like the ascension of Jesus, in which he gets taken up into heaven:

    “Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven” 2 Kings 2:11

    This is an important statement because Elijah was prophesied to return before the coming of the Christ:

    “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord.” Malachy 4:5

    One of the major stumbling blocks that the Jews had in accepting Jesus as the Christ is that they believed that Elijah would return in same manner in which he was taken up. Jesus addresses this, saying that in fact Elijah did come, but not as they were expecting. Instead John the Baptist was the manifestation of Elijah. It is clear that Jesus’s definition of Isaiah’s return was inherently spiritual:

    “And his disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ And He answered and said, ‘Elijah is coming and will restore all things’; but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Babtist.” Matthew 17:19

    Spiritual vs. Physical Resurrection

    If we are to believe that Jesus physically resurrected and will therefore physically return, why is it that the Jews also believed this even though it wasn’t the case. Could it be that the return of Jesus will also be a spiritual return, manifested in a different physical vessel? Paul the apostle hints at the fact that many of God’s teachings can only be understood using a spiritual lens:

    “For to us God revealed them through the spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of a man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of god; for they are fo0lishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:10-14

    He also clearly lays out the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body, and the relationship that they have with each other. In the first part this statement, he talks about how we must sacrifice our physical selves so that our spiritual selves can be liberated:

    “But someone will say, how are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come? You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own…There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another…So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body, if there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”

    In the second part, he uses the analogy of the first Adam, who represents the physical self, compared to the last Adam (Christ), who becomes the life giving spirit. He ends the quote by making it very clear that a perishable body cannot inherit the imperishable body; they are two distinctly different things:

    “The first Man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam(Christ) became a life-giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven, heavenly. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. And just as we have born the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” 1Corinthians 15:35-50

    This is an unequivocal statement that our physical bodies will not be resurrected, as many Christians believe. They are flesh and blood, perishable; they must be sown like seeds to make way for the tree of the spirit. So than what about Jesus? Was he not resurrected physically? The accounts of him leaving the tomb after the crucifixion and appearing before the disciples are written in a very literal manner:

    “And very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen…And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. And he said to them, ‘do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here.” Mark 16:2-6

    “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have…He said to them, ‘Have you anything here to eat? And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.” Luke 24:38-39

    By looking only at the previous accounts, it would seem clear that Jesus’s resurrection was literal. This interpretation however is inconsistent with Paul’s description of the natural and spiritual body. One could argue that Jesus is the exception when it comes to physical resurrection. However, this is inconsistent with other passages where it is stated that we will be raised in the same manner as Jesus:

    “Always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh…Knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you” 2 Corinthians 4:10-14

    The appearances of Jesus to his disciples must have been the spiritual body of Jesus. An overpowering spiritual bounty that was so real and amazing that it could only be explained in terms of physical experience, such as touching His wounds and eating with him. Three days after Jesus had been crucified, his body had been sown, the body that his followers had known had disappeared, His spiritual body had been resurrected, and was available to all who sought to abide in the spirit of Jesus, and have that spirit abide in them:

    “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me.” John 15:4

    This spirit of Jesus became the spirit of God, and the spirit of love:

    “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life”. John 6:63

    “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24

    “The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:1

    The book by a Presbyterian Pastor entitled, Paul against Superstitution makes this point as does Bishop Spoke, Ehrman and many other scholars who are Christians themselves and understand the problems with reification of scripture, so oftern done by fundamentalists and Catholic theologians.

    Spiritual Return: But will the blind have an eye to see?

    If Jesus resurrected spiritually, it seems logical that he would also return spiritually, meaning that the spirit would become manifest in a new human form. He speaks about many different entities who will assist the believers in the final days. The “helper” and the “spirit of truth” seem to refer both to the Holy Spirit which will abide within the believers, as well as a guide who will speak forth and tell of what is to come.

    “‘And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.'” John 14:16-17

    “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.” John 15:26

    “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” John 16:7

    “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you” John 16:12-14

    In addition, he also speaks of his own return in which he will speak plainly of the Fath, and the arrival of one with a “new name”.

    These things I have spoken to you in a figurative language; an hour is coming when I will speak no more to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the father.” John 16:25

    “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My ‘new name'” Revelation 3:12

    False Prophets

    Jesus was very clear that there would be many false prophets:

    “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.” Matthew 24:5

    He also warned His followers to be skeptical of any rumors of a promised one:

    “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false christ’s and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. If therefore they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go forth, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.” Matthew 24:23-26

    He clearly states that he is the only Christ:

    “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me.” John 14:6

    And his followers assert that Jesus is the only name which can be followed: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” Acts 4:12

    Peter, who was the foundation of the early church, also admonished the followers to stay clear of false prophets and destructive heresies:

    “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” 2 Peter 2:1

    John, another core follower of Jesus, describes the king of false prophets, the Antichrist, and provided the criteria by which to judge:

    “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.” 1 John 2:20

    Criteria for Discernment

    So how will we know when Jesus does return, how can we avoid being led astray? This is not an easy question. The Bible says that Jesus will come at a time when we do not think he will:

    “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think he will.” Matthew 25:42-44

    When he comes, it will be like a thief in the night. When do we know when our house has been robbed? We know the morning after the fact. We do not know when Jesus will return. He might already be here:

    “For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” 1 Thessalonians 5:2

    Fortunately, the Bible gives ample guidance as to what to look for. We must look to the fruits:

    “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they” Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:15

    So how can we discern a prophet bearing good fruit from a prophet bearing bad fruit? We must test the spirits to see if they are from God. They must bear good fruits, and they must testify that Christ has come in the flesh and is from God:

    “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world” 1 John 4:1-3

    This implies an independent investigation of truth. This means that we cannot just believe something because our families or friends believe it. We do not want to be of those mentioned in the following verse, who persecuted the prophets just as our fathers might have:

    “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Which one of the prophets did you fathers not persecute? And they killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; you who have received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.” Acts 7:51-53

    A Case for Baha’u’llah

    The Baha’is believe that the Spirit of Jesus has returned in the human temple of Baha’u’llah. We do not expect anybody to believe this because we say so, but we do exhort people to independently investigate the truth of Baha’u’llahs claim and to judge him by his fruits. First look at the life of Baha’u’llah, which was defined by selfless love and service in the face of extreme adversity and opposition. Any seeker who would meet Him would be so transformed and humbled by the overpowering spirit and power of His presence, that many would go on to dedicate their lives, and even face martyrdom, to advance the cause of Baha’u’llah.

    Second, look at the world community that Baha’u’llah has set up. Every day, Baha’is coming from every corner of the globe arrives on pilgrimage to the Baha’i world center on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel. Throughout the world, the Baha’is are devoted to establishing the kingdom of God on earth, where all peoples, regardless of race, religion, culture, or gender will become united and establish peace on earth described in the Bible:

    “In the last days, the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. And many people’s will come and say, ‘come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may walk in His paths.’ For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, and will render decision for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.” Isaiah 2:2-4

    The Baha’i faith is the first religion in the history of the world that has not broken up into competing sects. Baha’u’llah establish a clear covenant by which the authority is clear, and yet there is room for flexibility and organic growth. In every Baha’ i community with at least 9 members, a local spiritual assembly is elected to guide the community. This election is done by secret ballot, there is no campaigning. People are encouraged to vote in a prayerful manner for those that will best guide their community. No one person has more spiritual authority over anybody else, there is no clergy. The assembly comes to decisions as a body through a process of consultation. This pattern is replicated on a national level, and on a global level. Every 5 years, 9 members are elected by Baha’is from all over the world to serve on the Universal House of Justice. While this body is obligated to follow the guidance explicitly set down by the founders, they are tasked with guiding the world community, and deciding on matters that have not already been revealed.

    Third, Baha’u’llah constantly speaks of Jesus as the Son of God, who came to earth to bring salvation to the souls of men. Here is but one of many verses where Baha’u’llah praises Jesus:

    “Know though that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things…We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things…Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” –Baha’u’llah

    Putting Baha’u’llah’s praises of Jesus within a larger context, he taught a concept called progressive revelation. This means that God has been with humanity at all times, giving guidance through manifestations of God. The core spiritual message is always the same, ancient and eternal:

    “It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in diverse attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith.” – Baha’u’llah

    Nevertheless, this Spirit of God is revealed using concepts and establishing laws relevant to the culture and evolutionary capacity of the people. Jesus speaks of progressive revelation using the parable of the wineskins:

    “And he was telling them a parable: ‘No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts in on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. But the new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.'” Luke 5:35

    Today is the day where the new wine of the spirit is reviving the hearts of humans, recreating the very foundation of civilization. It is not an instant event that is beyond our reach. Instead, we have been given the spiritual tools to build this new civilization ourselves, and thereby realize and manifest our true spiritual self, which mirrors the Spirit of God:

    “This is the day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving kindness…Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the knower of things unseen.” –Baha’u’llah.

  102. I liked Jason’s essay so I left it for you to ponder with your heart and head, Medieval arguments of Catholicism are not relevant today. I disagree with your myopic thoughts, not all Protestants and all world religions are wrong! Be reasonable, they are all from God just like Catholic once was, but the religions of the world are like grades of school some are like elementary school and some later faiths are more advanced like high school or college. To say God only has Catholics going to heaven doesn’t make sense and cannot be truth. The Catholic Church is never going to regain its prominence of the 4th or 5th century. Islam had to be brought to this world to correct Catholic theological errors and its corruption, as documented in the Protestant Reformation lists of grievances. Most fair theologians would agree with that assessment today. More and more Catholic women are dissatisfied, they want power, priests will want to marry and the outdated rituals will be replaced by a modern urban religion, a faith that stresses unity and one that is designed to meet the needs of a global civilization who glowingly excepts the validity of all world religions. Unity and the three oneness’s are central teachings of Baha’u’llah, all of the Baha’i principles He taught are gradually coming into fruition not just be a growing world Baha’i community but by non Baha’is as well and this was promised by the Glory of the Father Himself…

  103. I really don’t believe you were an ex Baha’i because you know so little or have such a rudimentary understanding of the religion that I think either you never were really confirmed or active or you are outright lying about being a former a Baha’i.

    Lets be honest with me. What is your name? Is it Jay or Jonah or both? Were you a former Baha’i and if so, for how long were you a Baha’i? What Baha’i Community were you in? Were you a Baha’i in good standing or a Covenant Breaker or not in good standing with the Administrative Institutions? Is your wife a Baha’i who is active? Is your wife in good standing with the Faith or has she fallen away like you? If she is in good standing what are her thoughts about you developing a blog like this, be honest with me on this?

    Please answer these questions.

  104. Catholic58: You asked for proof of errors here are just two websites with plenty of proofs. Besides how can the Catholic bible have an additional book of Maccabees and the King James denies this book?

    https://infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

    Baha’is believe in the Bible and that it comes from God but not that its totally without error: Here is an interesting accusation from this website: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

    Forgeries* in the Bible

    Matthew 6:13: The Lord’s Prayer traditionally ends: “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” This seems to have been absent from the original writings. 6

    Matthew 17:21 is a duplicate of Mark 9:29. It was apparently added by a copyist in order to make Matthew agree with Mark. But Mark 9:29 also contains a forgery*; this makes Matthew 17:21 a type of double-layered forgery*. 5

    John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an “orphan story” because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.

    It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus’ ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus’ stance on the death penalty.

    Mark 9:29: Jesus comments that a certain type of indwelling demon can only be exorcised through “prayer and fasting” (KJV) This is also found in the Rheims New Testament. But the word “fasting” did not appear in the oldest manuscripts. 5 Many new English translations have dropped the word.

    Mark 16:9-20: The original version of Mark ended rather abruptly at the end of Verse 8. Verses 9 to 20, which are shown in most translations of the Bible, were added later by an unknown forger*. The verses were based on portions of Luke, John and other sources.

    Luke 3:22: This passage describes Jesus’ baptism by John the Baptist. According to Justin Martyr, the original version of this verse has God speaking the words: “You are my son, today have I begotten thee.” Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, and other ancient Christian authorities also quoted it this way. 1 The implication is that Jesus was first recognized by God as his son at the time of baptism. But a forger* altered the words to read: “You are my son, whom I love.” The altered passage conformed more to the evolving Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God at his birth, (as described in Luke and Matthew) or before the beginning of creation (as in John), and not at his baptism.

    John 5:3-4: These verses describe how “a great multitude” of disabled people stayed by the water. From time to time an angel arrived, and stirred the waters. The first person who stepped in was cured. This passage seems strange. The process would not be at all just, because the blind could not see the waters being stirred, and the less mobile of the disabled would have no chance of a cure. Part of Verse 3 and all of Verse 4 are missing from the oldest manuscripts of John. 3 It appears to be a piece of free-floating magical text that someone added to John.

    John 21: There is general agreement among liberal and mainline Biblical scholars that the original version of the Gospel of John ended at the end of John 20. John 21 appears to either be an afterthought of the author(s) of John, or a later addition by a forger*. Most scholars believe that the latter occurred. 4

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35: This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services. It is obvious to some theologians that verses 14:33b to 36 are a later addition, added by an unknown counterfeiter* with little talent at forgery.*

    Bible scholar, Hans Conzelmann, comments on these three and a half verses: “Moreover, there are peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought. [within them].” 2 If they are removed, then Verse 33a merges well with Verse 37 in a seamless transition.

    Since they were a later forgery*, they do not fulfill the basic requirement to be considered inerrant: they were not in the original manuscript written by Paul. This is a very important passage, because much many denominations opposition to female ordination is based on these verses.

    Revelation 1:11: The phrase “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,” which is found in the King James Version was not in the original Greek texts. It is also found in the New King James Version (NKJV) and in the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) The latter are basically re-writes of the original KJV. Modern English, is used, but the translators seem to have made little or no effort to correct errors. The Alpha/Omega phrase

    “… is not found in virtually any ancient texts, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger’s definitive ‘A Textual Commentary’ on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition (New York: United Bible Societies, 1994…” 7

    There are scores of websites which point out Biblical errors and differences in types of Bibles and translations as well.

  105. Who is the author of this website? Are Catholic58 and Jonah the same person?

    I really don’t believe you were an ex Baha’i because you know so little or have such a rudimentary understanding of the religion that I think either you never were really confirmed or active or you are outright lying about being a former a Baha’i.

    Lets be honest with me. What is your name–at least your first name if you won’t be honest with your full name?

    Were you a former Baha’i and if so, for how long were you a Baha’i?

    What Baha’i Community were you in? Were you a Baha’i in good standing or a Covenant Breaker or not in good standing with the Administrative Institutions? ‘

    Is your wife a Baha’i? Is she an active Baha’i now? Is your wife in good standing with the Faith or has she fallen away like you? If she is in good standing what are her thoughts about you developing a blog like this, be honest with me on this?

    Please answer these questions.

  106. SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST , THE RETURN OD ELIJAH , AND JOHN THE BAPTIST
    i find it rather interesting that a person who endorsed such a narrow and one dimensional exegetical theory as the one you presented earlier , i.e. that Jesus only fulfilled the prophecies Spiritually , could have the audacity to call me myopic

    David Young is the last person qualified to teach christians anything , especially anything about biblical exegesis in light of his own myopic view of Christ in prophetic literature

    You could do yourself justice by not quoting from his seminars
    ( Teaching Christians more effectively ) because he is NOT qualified to teach Christians

    I appreciate the great discourse in presenting the return of Elijah and equating this in the same manner as the return of Christ .

    Just a minor correction to what you said : Malachi DOES NOT say HOW Elijah would return , but only that he would return . So there is one difference already

    Secondly , John the baptist came in the spirit of Elijah ONLY

    LUKE 1:17
    17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

    JOHN 1:21
    And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he says, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.”
    ( We should notice that “the prophet” the Jews were referring to in the above text was Moses )

    2 KINGS 2:11
    11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, wchariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

    Furthermore , John the baptist is not ACTUALLY Elijah in person , because Elijah did not die but was taken to heaven with the Arc of the Covenant , which as we know contained within itself THE WORD OF GOD or THE TEN COMMANDMENTS . This is important as I will show later .

    But the following passage tells of Elisha having the Spirit of Elijah also

    2 KINGS 2:15
    15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him opposite them, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.”

    These three individuals are separate and wholly distinct individuals , each being born of Women

    Lets look at what Christ said of Elijah’s return

    MATTHEW 17:10-13
    And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and whe will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist.

    But the question remains ; Did Elijah LITERALLY return ????????

    The Answer is yes , and so did Moses at the transfiiguration

    MATTHEW 17:1-8

    [28] Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. [29] And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. [30] And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, [31] who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. [32] Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, and when they wakened they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. [33] And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli’jah” — not knowing what he said. [34] As he said this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. [35] And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” [36] And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silence and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

    So Elijah SPIRITUALLY and LITERALLY returned .

    Its also very interesting too that Moses should appear at the transfiguration . That only makes sense if Moses was resurrected , or more probably resuscitated , as was Lazarus from the dead . No known tomb of Moses exists . We also have a “cloud” that overshadowed the three disciples .

    Bahai interprets this as a sign of Progressive revelation , but this is not a sign of progressive revelation , but a fulfilment of that which is foretold

    Moses was a type of Christ , and Jesus is the Archetype and the eternal fulfilment of the exodus . Whereas Moses leads the Israelites from captivity from the Egyptians to the promised land Jesus leads his people ( HUMANITY ) from the bondage of sin . He does this through his vicarious sin offering on the cross . That is why Moses was present at MT Tabor . It wasn’t to demonstrate “progressive revelation” it was to demonstrate how Jesus is the Fulfilment of the law . Also Moses was given the Tablet , or the WORD of GOD written on stone . The word of God ( TEN COMMANDMENTS ) were a prefigurement of Christ who is the ETERNAL WORD of GOD .Christ is the personification of the word of God which was given to Moses . Jesus is not a symbol of progressive revelation at Mt Tabor , He was the fulfilment .
    Elijah was present at the transfiguration for a reason other than to fulfil OT prophecy . As we know The Tablet of the Law written in stone was placed inside the Arc of the Covenant and was ultimately taken into heaven with Elijah . Jesus is the fulfilment of the typology as the personification of THE WORD of GOD , the incarnate Word . Mary also fulfils this Typology , as she is the Personification of The Arc of the covenant , because Mary ( The Pure vessel ) carried within herself the living Word off God

    St Luke parallels the Arc of the covenant with Mary as the typological fulfilment in the infancy narratives

    IN SUMMARY

    Elijah did not just SPiRITUALLY return , he LITERALLY RETURNED in person too .This is a very important feature of Elijahs return that is overlooked by Bahai’s who gloss over this fact as they endeavour to correlate the the Spiritual return of Elijah to the Spiritual return of Christ in the person of Bahaullah .This spiritualising of the gospels is a one dimensional view of scripture . I previously demonstrated how faulty this type of exegesis really is in our previous discussion.

    There was very limited information concerning the nature of the return of Elijah which explains why there was some confusion about the nature of John the baptist ministry amongst the Jews . But since Elijah did actually come , are we to now expect that Christ will Literally come too . Are the two things even related to one another .

    Just because Elijah returned in this manner does not mean that Christ will return in Like manner . John the Baptist was a forerunner to the Messiah , but not the messiah himself . So these two figures are poles apart in terms of their nature and essence .

    What do we know about Elijah so far:

    Elijah did not die

    Elijah was a forerunner to Christ , but not a Christ figure

    Moses was resurrected or resuscitated and appeared at the transfiguration

    John the baptist was NOT actually Elijah but was only a spiritual representative of Elijah

    The real and true Elijah did LITERALLY return at the transfiguration

    Jesus is not a prophet of “progressive revelation” .Jesus is the fulfilment of ALL of the Old covenants , and not just another covenant in a succession of covenants . There in lies the difference , and the fruits of Bahaullah begin to manifest themselves in his effort to diminish the true spender and magnitude of Christ’s station .

    NOW LETS LOOK AT WHAT WE KNOW OF CHRIST AND COMPARE THEM TO ELIJAH :

    Unlike Elijah , we have an enormous amount of detail concerning the return of Jesus . An important aspect of this information centres around the LITERAL Resurrection of Christ .

    Unlike Elijah , we also have been given clear and definitive instructions as to the discernment of Christ return so as not to leave those who have a true faith in Christ without some instructions or warnings

    Unlike Elijah , Jesus is infinitely greater than him and is the Eternal Word who is Lord , God and saviour . Elijah is a mere prophet only

    Unlike Elijah , Jesus is the Messiah or the Christ “the Anointed one” foretold in the scriptures and the one who would save his people from their sins .

    Unlike Elijah , Jesus has hundreds of prophecies attached to him , pointing to him as the Great and Holy one of God , and not just another manifestation in the line of progressive revelations as Bahaullah would have us believe. ( FRUITS )

    Unlike Elijah , we are clearly told HOW Christ would Return , and that was to be the way he left

    ACT 1:11
    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? THIS SAME JESUS , who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    “THIS SAME JESUS” will return

    The apostles witnessed Christ LITERALLY ascend into Heaven , but unlike Elijah’s return that was shrouded in mystery , the Angel tells the disciples that THE SAME Christ will return , and he will return just as he left . Not in a Spirit manner like Elijah , but the SELF SAME Jesus that they saw ascend into heaven

    This self same Jesus that appeared to thousands after his resurrection .

    This is such an important event and the words of the Angel are clear : That Jesus , the one that ascended into heaven , will return . No real comparison with Elijah can be made in light of this revelation .

    So lets move on to the Resurrection :

    .OT PROPHECY DECLARES THAT HOLY ONE OF GOD WILL NOT HAVE HIS BODY SEE CORRUPTION

    ACTS 13:34-36
    …34In fact, God raised Him from the dead never to see decay. As He has said: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings I promised to David.’ 35So also, He says in another Psalm: ‘You will not let your Holy One see decay.’ 36For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay.

    St Luke quotes from Psalms that sates that the Holy one of God ( JESUS ) shall not have his body corrupted in the grave .Since David did actually die and was buried and never resurrected , it is now clear that this prophecy is about THE HOLY ONE OF GOD , JESUS

    It is interesting to note too that Jesus and His Mother fulfil typological aspects of the kingdom of David ,as wells s the prophecy of Genesis but thats for another discussion , but one that is important in understanding just how immensely Special Jesus is and how he is stupendously greater than anyone that preceded him or anybody after him .

    Without Mary , there is no Christ .Christ and his mother are inseparable

    Anyone who understands the greatness of Christ and has undertaken a proper study of Christ in the Scriptures will realise that the idea of progressive revelation falls down magnificently in light of the what we know of Mohammed and in light of what the Quran says of Jesus . Mohammed has absolutely nothing on Christ and these two people are so far apart in word and deed that it really begs the question as to how someone might claim the idea of progressive revelation .

    Again Bahaullah either wilfully overlooks these attributes ,or is ignorant of them as well as many others , and pathetically ascribes Jesus with A STATION that is manifestly inadequate and an insult to him and a denigration off his TRUE STATION .

    JESUS PROPHECIES HIS OWN BODILY RESURRECTION

    JOHN 2 19:25
    19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this] temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
    20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
    21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
    22 So when He was RAISED FROM THE DEAD , His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

    Here Jesus tells us that he would raise HIS own BODY from the grave . in three days and also tell the Pharisees that he would give them the sign of Jonah

    METTHEW 16:4
    A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Then He left them and went away. 5

    JESUS RISES FROM THE DEAD AND JOHN TELLS US THAT JESUS INVITES THOMAS TO TOUCH HIS WOUNDS

    JOHN 20:26-28
    26Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”…

    JESUS ADDRESSES THE APOSTLES , POST RESURRECTION , AND TELLS THEM THAT HE HAS FLESH AND BONES WHICH THE SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE

    LUKE 24:38-40
    38“Why are you troubled,” Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39Look at My hands and My feet. IT IS I MYSELF. Touch Me and see —FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU CAN SEE I HAVE 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.…

    JESUS EATS WITH HIS DISCIPLES

    LUKE 24:35-48
    While they were still incredulous for joy and were amazed, he asked them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of baked fish; he took it and ate it in front of them.

    Using St Paul’s discourse in Corinthians in an effort to somehow prove that Jesus was only Spiritually raised from the dead is a distortion of that text . I am going to use the same scripture verses you use Dr J, but I will reframe them within the context of the resurrection to

    BUT WHAT ABOUT WHAT PAUL SAID :

    Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom – 1 Corinthians 15:20. However, Scripture speaks about a physical resurrection composed of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).

    1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    To more fully understand this verse, we must look at the fuller context of what Paul is saying. Paul is not saying that all flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom, but “corruptible” (flesh and blood will not). He is comparing the natural to the spiritual (vs. 44), the earthly to the heavenly (vs. 49), and the perishable to the imperishable (vs. 50). These mortal bodies will put on immortality (vs. 53). Paul is simply saying a resurrection with a bodily change is coming.
    As you commented, Jesus himself is “incorruptible” flesh and bone. Luke writes, in

    Jesus Himself is testimony to this truth as he declared that he indeed had FLESH and BONES

    Luke 24:37-39:
    They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

    John writes in John 20:27:
    Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

    Pauls comments do not Nullify the reality of the physical resurrection, he is telling us that “OUR” corrupt bodies cannot enter this kingdom but through Christ we will ultimately reach our destiny

    St Paul Is correct : Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven , because flesh and blood in this sense is corruptible human existence as well as corruptible human understanding , hence St Paul teaching in Corinthians 3:14-16 That impurity shall be burnt away at the judgement and loss shall be suffered prior to entering the kingdom of heaven ( PURGATORY ) .

    CORINTHIANS 3:14-16
    …14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?…

    And further in revelation that Nothing impure can enter the Kingdom of heaven

    REVELATION 27:7
    27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it ( HEAVEN ) nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    Christ even tells Peter that his FLESH and BLOOD or corruptible human understanding did not reveal the truth of Christ’s eternal Sonship with the Father , but actually came from the Father himself

    MATTHEW 16:16-17…16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by FLESH and BLOOD but by My Father in heaven.

    JESUS NEVER TO DIE AGAIN

    Furthermore , Christ is never to die again , which begs the question : How can Christ have returned and die once again since the scripture tells us that this is impossible

    ROMANS 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.

    Since the spirit cannot die , then it is clear that Paul is referring to a Physical death and resurrection

    CHRIST PRE RESURRECTED BODY IS NEITHER UNCLEAN NOR INPURE

    The phrase Flesh and Blood in Corinthians represents a corruptible human body and corruptible human understanding This reference of St Paul has no bearing on Christ’s resurrected body because

    Christ has taken on a new glorified body , and one that is now animated by spiritual powers and a body that is not susceptible to the limitations of its former earthly existence .
    Even Christ pre resurrected earthly Body was never corrupted by sin , even if he was limited in how his body functioned within the realm of this earthly existence

    Christ tells us that his pre-resurrected Body and Blood are necessary to eat in order to attain salvation. This flesh and blood would be given in the Eucharistic meal that Christ instituted at the last supper .

    Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you cannot enter kingdom of heaven

    JOHN 6:44-58
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will RAISE HIM on the last day ( JUDGEMENT )It is written in the prophets:‘THEY SHALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.’Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.xNot that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.yAmen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.I am the bread of life.Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;zthis is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”aThe Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.ForMY FLESH is TRUE FOOD, and MY BLOOD is TRUE DRINKWhoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

    CHRIST FULFILS TYPOLOGICALLY the manna from heaven , but unlike the previous manna which the Israelites ate , Those that eat the flesh and drink the blood ( EUCHARIST )of the son of man will be RAISED on the Last day ( JUDGEMENT )

    Bahai’s masterfully evade the most important aspects of Christ resurrection and I will restate as I have done before how the fruits of the Bahai faith are presenting a false idea of of Christ , that they have diminished his TRUE STATION and misappropriate prophecies to Bahaullah that actually belong to Jesus which I highlighted in a previous post .

    Bahai’s love to claim how Bahaullah speaks so eloquently of Jesus , which he does , and how Bahaullah says that Jesus is the Son of God , which he does , But a true understanding of Jesus shows that these accolades are really perfunctory ( SUPERFICIAL ) as they do not speak of the TRUE CHRIST or his TRUE GREATNESS . A true knowledge of Christ demonstrates the following

    His true and unparalleled greatness in all of human history
    The absolute necessity of Christ vicarious atonement in the salvation of ALL MEN .
    His fulfilment of multitudes ( HUNDREDS ) of prophecies .
    The importance Mary as our intercessor
    The necessity of the sacrament of the ( EUCHARIST )
    His TRUE divinity as TRUE GOD and TRUE MAN
    His Bodily resurrection as the foundation of faith
    THE REAL FRUITS of Bahaism as they diminish , overlook and reinterpret the TRUE Christ to that of a mere manifestation whilst at the same time elevate their Bahuallah , and present him as another Christ .

    CHRIST’S OWN WARNING

    MATTHEW 24:23-24
    , if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…

    JESUS warns us not to listen to ANYONE who says that they are Christ .

    Why ????? Because he is the ONLY Christ . He is the only one that can redeem us . He is the only one that saves us from our sins and who died as a vicarious sin offering . He is the only one that left us a memorial that is his same sacrifice represented to the Father on our behalf at each and very Eucharistic celebration . He is the only one that sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven . He is the only one that fulfils ( TYPOLOGICALLY and PROPHETICALLY : SPIRTUALLY AND LITERALLY ) the OT scriptures .

    COMPARISON TO ELIJAH :

    Unlike Elijah CHRIST is the EMANUEL , The “God with us” who walked amongst his people . Unlike Elijah Everything that was written before him was about him . His Mother too is extremely important in the equation , Because she fulfils along with Christ some of the prophecies and Many OT typologies too . Mary is also greater than any of the prophets that proceed her . I could go on forever about this , but I need to carry on with the subject matter

    As far as I am concerned , Mohammed is as guilty as Bahaullah in diminishing the deeds of Christ in order to elevate his own station .
    Neither of these two men demonstrate a knowledge of the things I just revealed , and if they did they certainly did not share them with their audiences . These attributes of Christ are glossed over , reinterpreted , watered down , or just not mentioned ….why ??????

    A look at some of the Quranic texts reveals the lack of real insight Mohammed had of Christ and His mother . Many off these Quranic text have left Muslims with a distorted view of Christianity . Likewise Bahaullah either didn’t know or didn’t want to know anything about the importance of Christ and the TRUE greatness of his station . Instead Bahaullah diminishes them , or doesn’t understand them . Bahai’s also attributes prophecies that rightfully belong to Christ as i explained In a previous post . In fact the Title Bahaullah ( glory of God ), is a title that also rightfully belongs to Jesus.

    Why would Jesus warn us about anyone who was claiming to be Christ if he was to return as another person . If Christ was to return as another person , i.e. Bahaullah then these words would be redundant . But Alas he warned us to turn our ears away from anyone who claims this .

    It is interesting to note that Jesus actually knew that this would happen and he is giving us warning ahead of time

    Jesus is also telling us that there would be false Prophets too , and there would be many of them , and many would be deceive .

    It is also very telling too that these men would perform signs that would deceive even the elect .

    If these men or false prophets can perform signs , then where do they powers comes from ??????

    . They cannot have these powers as an innate quality of their natural human personage , but rather these powers originate within the Spiritual realm . This would imply that that there are indeed evil Spirits at work in the world , because it would be only through those powers that a false prophet could perform signs and wonders .

    1 PETER 5:8
    8Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in your faith and in the knowledge that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering.…

    Satan does have some power in the spiritual realm and can assist those false prophets in order to deceive people through SIGNS and WONDERS

    MATTHEW 24:23-24
    , if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…

    2 CORINTHIANS 11:13-15
    “such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, DISGUISING THEMSELVES as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also,DISGUISE THEMSELVES AS SERVANT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS . Their end will correspond to their deeds.” So the reason for testing the spirits, for testing all religious teaching, is to see if it is truly from God or if it is a lie from Satan and his servants.

    Bahai’s have substituted one Christ for another .

    The real Christ who resurrected from the dead will return in all his Glory ….the same Glory that was revealed at the transfiguration . He will judge the living and the dead and ALL Suffering Will be done away with .There will be TRUE universal peace unlike what we have today , 200 years since the birth of this SUBSTITUTE Christ who has NOT brought an end to suffering but rather has brought another religion in the mix and has created further division in an already divided world .

    Not only this , but the last century has seen the most horrific murdering that has reached its barbaric totality with the unprecedented mass killings of unborn children that has eclipsed all deaths of all wars in the history of humanity .

    This world does not need more religions , It needs Christ

    REVELATION 21:2-5
    …2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.…3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”…

    When Christ does actually return , There will be a UNIVERSAL judgement of the LIVING and the Dead . there will be an INSTANT end to ALL earthly suffering , There will be UNIVERSAL peace .There will be NO MORE death .There will NO MORE sin . We will all live in the presence of God for all eternity

    Christ’s final return will usher in a Glorious resurrection , and all those who have remained steadfast in him will be saved and will be resurrected in there new and Glorious bodies with Christ .There here will be none of the things of Corruption left that are ever pervasive in this corrupted , sinful , world .

  107. You reference:
    Bahá’u’lláh does sometimes talk of the manifestation of the essence of God. But in the light of his frequent disclaimers that the divine essence can be manifested, we must take this as an abbreviated way of speaking of the manifestation of the attributes of the essence of God.

    MY RESPONSE :

    . The “essence of attributes” are still not the same as “essence of nature” . We all can possess the attributes of God , but not his nature . That alone is found in Christ .

    He alone possesses all the attributes of God , Jesus is the manifestation , or more righty , the incarnation of God possessing ALL the qualities and essence of God

    THE SUPREMACY OF CHRIST

    COLOSSIANS 1:15-20
    15The Son is the image of the invisible God,
    the firstborn over all creation.
    16For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
    things visible and invisible,
    whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
    All things have been created through him and for him.
    17He himself existed before anything else did,
    and he holds all things together.
    18He is also the head of the body,
    which is the church.
    He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
    so that he himself might have first place in everything.
    19For God was pleased to have
    all of his divine essence inhabit him.
    20Through the Son, God also reconciled all things to himself,
    whether things on earth or things in heaven,
    thereby making peace
    through the blood of his cross.

    Only God can create . No creature of his , despite how special he thinks he is , can create a solitary thing ex nihilo .

    Christ , the eternal Word , created the universe because he shares in the fullness of Gods essence

    Without possessing the divine essence , Christ would not have been able to create the universe and the above text would be meaningless and empty rhetoric .

  108. Dr J < YOU SAID ( in a previous post

    Given this essential unity of the manifestations of God, from whence does their diversity derive? Bahá’u’lláh makes it clear that “It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ.” While each theophany is a source of the light of the divine attributes, some shine more brightly than others, and some exemplify more of these attributes while in human form than others. In this station of distinction, “each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations.” 
Bahá’u’lláh elsewhere explains that these apparent variations in the intensity of the light of the Manifestations of God derive solely from the variable receptivity of their human audiences. Each manifestation acts in such a way as to fulfill the needs of the particular age and people he addresses. So this ought to clarify your scriptural confusion about Jesus existing before Abraham.

    MY RESPONSE :
    I don’t have any scriptural confusion regarding Christ’s preexistence . The texts that I have provided in my previous post should clarify your own confusion
    COLOSSIANS 1:15-20
    In fact the term “I AM” denotes that Christ existed before Abraham in the eternal sense , This not some reference to the brightness of his being , but a clear distinction between him and Abraham

    This explanation you offered by Bahaullah does not clarify or offer any real tangible insight into Christ declaration of pre-existence . It really just “EXPLAINS AWAY” the meaning of his words .

    As I explained in my rather lengthy response to your spiritual resurrection theory , I stated equivocally that Christ is NOT some manifestation in a line of progressive revelations ; he is the fulfilment of the prophets , and not just another prophet . Again your Bahaullah either is unaware of this , or he doesn't feel that those attributes of Christ are worth mentioning or he doesn't want you to believe this as this reality seriously undermines his progressive revelation theory .

    The theory of essential unity is only applicable in so far as the prophets before Christ foreshadowed his ultimatete arrival . He ( Christ ) competes the prophets before him but Christ is Not like them , and his nature and his arrival is beyond anything that any of his predecessors could ever have envisaged or understood .

    The uniqueness of Christ has absolutely nothing to do with the receptivity of those who heard him . Christ unique station was because of who he was and what those before him said and did ( PROPHECY and TYPOLOGY ) that ultimately reached their completion and fulfilment in him .

  109. Didn’t you say your wife is a Baha’i is that correct?

    There are 38,000 Christian sects who disagree over Bible prophecy and you come up with a rant like this to try to prove your false theory? Your just an ant in an ant hill of one of the worlds most divided religions with many versions of the Bible, many translations including your Catholic one which has additional books to the King James.

    How stupid of you to proclaim YOUR spins on the Bible are THE correct interpretations, even if all of David Young’s books aren’t correct, so what does that prove? The NSA doesn’t give David their stamp of approval on his Bible prophecy theories, not all Baha’i Bible scholars agree either, thats for sure.

    Like all blind persons who claim to be Christians but aren’t, you are just another an angry addict who is on a dry drunk with a big ego, that is NOT recovery. No true recovering addict would do or say what you say. There is no love from you only hate. So as I have said you are an addict who is out to prove himself right. You will see when you get the next world two things: Baha’u’llah is who He says He is and you were dead wrong.

    In my view, instead of living by the motto live and let live which all true addicts in recovery practice you do the opposite. You have committed the worst of sins, attacking a Manifestation of God and the return of the spirit of Christ. All the miracles of the Baha’i Faith, the banishment of Baha’u’llah to Palestine fulfilling Bible prophecies, the building of God’s arc on Mt. Carmel of the Baha’i administrative buildings and archives, all inventions bringing the Baha’i prinicples to fruition, the constructing of an underground vault on the mountain that contains all of Baha’u’llah’s Sacred Writings which are preserved forever, are all events which in your myopic view are just coincidences, thats pitiful, narrow minded and blindness itself. I think you are close to being a Covenant Breaker, if not one.

    Answer my question about your wife, is she a Baha’i in good standing, yes or no?

  110. BTW, you can wait until eternity for Christ to return in the literal ways you describe and interpret the Bible but HE has returned by a new name and set up God’s government. YOU have rejected Him when He has proven Himself by His fruits (works and life). That is something you must live with and ultimately be accountable for. As Baha”u’llah said, by denying Him you deny ALL OF THE PROPHETS of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. Good luck foolish Jay.

  111. For your own edification and hopeful enlightenment:

    Story of Bahá’u’lláh and transformation of Janaab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan-i-Nakha’ee.

    Following is the story of Jinab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan-i-Nakha’i, which was related in an article called “Why Manifestations Appear in Human Form” by Hadi Rahmani Shirazi, which appeared in the Persian Baha’i magazine Payam-i-Baha’i, No. 366. A provisional translation of this story from the original Persian has been made by Dr. Khazeh Fananapazir, as follows:

    “Janaab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan-i-Nakha’ee, was an influential and rich local man, who believed in the Blessed Beauty, Bahá’u’lláh, and lived in Khusef which is part of Birjand. As a result of his acceptance of the Faith, most of his relatives also became Baha’is.

    This Janaab-i-Nakha’ee went on pilgrimage to Akka to attain the presence of His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh. On his first and second visit to Baha’u’llah, he was accompanied by other pilgrims, but when he returned to the pilgrim house, he thought to himself that he had borne the hardships and difficulties of a long journey that had lasted six months, hoping to witness some extraordinary Divine events, but he saw in Bahá’u’lláh a man like others, speaking and giving instructions similar to other men. “There is perhaps nothing extraordinary or miraculous here,” he thought.

    He was immersed in these thoughts when on the third day of their visit, one of the servants came and informed him that Baha’u’llah wanted to see him alone and unaccompanied. He immediately went to the presence of the Blessed Beauty and as he lifted the curtain and entered His room, he bowed and instantly saw the Blessed Beauty as an incredibly bright and dazzling Light. So intense was his experience of this Light that he fell to the floor and lost consciousness. All that he recalled is Bahá’u’lláh saying: “fee Amanil’lah” which means go in God’s safe keeping.”

    The servants were able to drag him to the corridor and subsequently brought him to the pilgrim house. He could not eat or sleep for two days after that event and he was conscious of Bahá’u’lláh’s overwhelming Presence everywhere. He kept on telling the other pilgrims that He is here with us.

    His fellow pilgrims got tired of this and asked Abdu’l-Baha for help. After couple of days, the servant came back again and took him to Bahá’u’lláh’s presence. When he attained His presence, He poured forth loving kindness and gracious utterances and bade him to be seated.

    Then Bahá’u’lláh said: “Janaab-i-Muhammad Quli Khan! The Manifestations of the Divine Essence are forced to appear in human attire and clothes. If Their true Being, that which is behind the veil of concealment were to be revealed, then all humanity like your good self will lose consciousness and swoon away to the realm of the unconscious.” Then Baha’u’llah went on: “Do you know how parrots are taught to speak?” I bowed and said: “I do not know”.

    Baha’u’llah explained: “The parrot owners have a parrot within a cage. Then they bring a big mirror in front of the cage and a man hides himself behind the mirror and starts repeating words and phrases. The parrot sees that there is another parrot identical to itself talking in the cage (reflected in the mirror) and imagining that it is another parrot that is doing the talking it too starts mimicking and learns to speak. Now, if the person who is actually behind the mirror were to reveal himself from the start, then the parrot will never learn to speak. It is thus that the Manifestations of the Divine Being should come into the world in human form and attire so that They will not frighten mankind with Their awesome Being…”

    This man was utterly transformed and on his return from attaining Bahá’u’lláh’s presence to the end of his days, he was engaged in teaching others. He had attained such spiritual insight that he predicted the night of his own departure from this earthly realm.”
    ( From the book “Self Study Notes for The Seven Valleys of Baha’u’llah”, p. 177, by Dr. Sohrab Kourosh). May His love reach your tired soul…………….

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