Why Catholics don’t divorce

A while back I had a post on the Baha’i concept of social laws vs. spiritual laws, and how that doesn’t translate well – or at least it translates differently – to the Catholic worldview.

I used the example of divorce, which generated a lot of comments. I did my best to explain how Catholics conceptualize marriage and divorce, but I’m not sure if I was clear. Here is an old clip from South Park from 1998 that says what I was trying to say.

Quality time

50 Responses

  1. I think in ancient times, women did not have the options they do today. Society was mostly agrarian with a pressing need for nuclear families. This is not true in this day and age.

    Marriage can be a great blessing or a terrible bane. A bane that brings out the worst in both parties. Although, it shouldn’t be taken lightly, we really need that option. I know I did. My married life was hell and inflicted great spiritual damage to my soul. Divorce was a spiritual blessing to me,

  2. This is a very painful topic for me, but it is important. Firstly, I try to follow Bahai teachings. Secondly I am in the process of divorce. Thirdly I believe so greatly I the lofty station of marriage that I cannot accept being single. Therefore I don’t plan to remarry, but instead, I am making other plans… Marriage is a metaphor,as almost evrry thing in this physical world is. Unity is , for people like e, a primary symbol of all that we summarize as the highest aspirations of mankind. And I accept full responsibility for its failure. I am not contesting anything.

    I wish there would become a more serious attitude about an act of deciding to get married, in society. Among the collection of friends my age and relatives, divorce is about 50%. God is All-Merciful, All-Forgiving. But this doesn’t comfort me. The purpose of marriage is not considered carefully enough. From the outside our family looked reasonably successful. And this outer face is what we worked hard to preserve. This also cut us off, in our downward circular spiral. I would dare to say that what I know of family counseling outside the USA is somewhat medieval in outlook, and mostly spiritless. I say you, if you are attempting to be a spiritual person, why would you a cept advice from an agnostic/atheist counselor?

  3. I agree, marriage is a serious decision. It is a decision to commit yourself to the other person no matter what that person does or turns into. That’s really heavy.

    That doesn’t mean you have to live with them if they’re abusive, pretending everything is fine. A person in that situation can separate if they need to. But their marriage commitment is still present, and it would be wrong for them to start a sexual relationship with someone else.

    You’re right that marriage is a metaphor. But it’s more than that. It’s also a mechanism by which we learn to be like God. Real love is unconditional, and we must develop our capacity to do that. Choosing to dedicate ourselves to someone else is an act of unconditional love. We can’t say, “I’ll stay with this person unless they do X or Y. Then I’m free to leave them and start up with someone else.” Saying that puts conditions on our love. That’s not real love.

    The Catholic Church tries to instill this in people through marriage prep classes. Anyone who wants to get married in the Catholic Church has to take them. They also have to wait at least six months before doing the ceremony. It doesn’t always work, sometimes because the couple doesn’t take it seriously, or sometimes because the parish staff aren’t good at conducting the classes. But hopefully a lot of couples gain a better appreciation of what they’re getting themselves into. Marriage is not to be taken lightly.

    I wish our popular culture promoted a view of marriage as a school of virtue, rather than treating it as the happy ending of a romantic story. Too many people go into marriage with a warped idea of what it is.

    I’m sorry to hear that you’re going through this. Our lives take strange and tragic turns. It doesn’t mean failure. We are broken creatures, and the brokenness follows us all of our mortal days. As long as we keep turning back to God, asking him for forgiveness and an increase in virtue, then we are living life well, no matter what happens along the way.

  4. When I was young, I thought I was well-prepared for marriage because I grew up in a home with a decent mom and dad who, though they didn’t always agree with each other, respected each other and loved each other very much. Their marriage lasted more than 55 years, ended only when my mom died of cancer. But, I so wish now that I had gone through some type of more thorough marriage preparation. I am Baha’i but my first husband, whom I married in my 20s, was a Christian. And he followed an earlier engagement which was broken before the wedding, also to a Christian. Their being Christian wasn’t the problem (my current husband is Christian also). The problem with my first husband was a very bad temper I saw nothing of until we were married and which degraded into physical abuse before we reached 6 months; and deception about what he truly thought and felt on a myriad of issues. Not sure if a preparation program and waiting period would have been able to flush these out, but I might have been better able myself to get at his real character. As it was, I had to send him away as soon as the physical abuse started; and while I was prepared to wait as long as it would take to get some help, his own pastor told me to cut my losses as my then-husband would not acknowledge he had a problem. That experience so wrenched my young heart and spirit that I didn’t want to look at dating again for a long time.

  5. I am a Baha’i and a former Catholic who has six aunts who are nuns. My brothers wife died and he is marrying a divorced woman. She has to go through an annulment that says she was never married and that her kids were then out of wedlock, this seems rather silly to her. Nonetheless, for my brother’s sake, she is going through that process. BTW, confession of sins was a joke for me and it never stopped me from committing the same sins over and over again. Our parish priest, who later was accused of molesting boys, would hear my confession anywhere I saw him BUT only rarely in the confessional. The Church protected this man (Father Jensen) and he never was prosecuted until he was in his seventies, when his nephew exposed him. Then many of his victims came forward. His line of boys who suffered from him being protected by the Church was very long indeed.

    The beliefs about babies, who are innocent of any sins, going to “Limbo” if they died without being baptized was total nonsense to me. Now the Church has changed on this but why did they believe it in the first place?

    Why believe that you die in mortal sin and can go to Hell for missing church on Sunday or masturbating? That was a belief of the Church when I was growing up.

    I am happy being a Baha’i. Its no coincidence that the Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah performed miracles in front of witnesses (chronicled in the books The Revelation of Baha’u’llah) and of course the miracle of the Bab was witnessed by thousands of people. Baha’u’llah, who was born in Persia, was eventually imprisoned in Israel, a decision made by others. It was there he was imprisoned, eventually let out of prison and pitched His tent on M t. Carmel. All of this is in fulfillment of Bible prophecy, see the book, Thief in the Night. Interestingly enough, there were German Templar Christians living at the base of the mountain and Baha’u’llah met them yet they were totally blind to His Personhood. While imprisoned, He wrote the Pope and asked Him to sell his ornaments and move out of the Vatican. For the first time in religious history, the Pope at that time was actually driven out of the Vatican. He wanted priests to marry and nuns to marry, which makes sense to me. I have been fortunate enough to meet former nuns and priests who now are Baha’is, so I just wanted to share a different window that what is presented here.

  6. Hi Dr J , masturbation is a serious sin , but not necessarily a mortal sin . Other factors must be taken into consideration too , like age and maturity . Mental , emotional and psychological issues too play a factor . Ignorance is also mitigating factor . Missing mass is also a serious sin , but again its not necessarily a mortal sin for the same reasons above . If you were taught that masturbation and skipping church is always a mortal sin then you were not taught correct church teaching .
    Its sad that some priests omitted these important details when instructing their congregation .

    You said :
    BTW, confession of sins was a joke for me and it never stopped me from committing the same sins over and over again.

    My response :
    The fact that you saw confession as a joke may be the reason you continued to persist in your sin.
    Confession is not just about sin away , its about forgiveness and Gods mercy which is greater than any sin we may commit . Confession is also place of renewal . I am sorry that you were never able to experience this .If you did then perhaps you may have a different view.

    My personal experience is very different than yours . I took confession seriously when I came back to Christ and his church .
    Although my first confession was difficult , I did it anyway knowing that Gods mercy is what prevails . Afterward I felt this incredible weight that was lifted from me . Glory to God

    I guess its what we bring to our spiritual journey that really depends on what we will ultimately receive .

    You said :
    My brothers wife died and he is marrying a divorced woman. She has to go through an annulment that says she was never married and that her kids were then out of wedlock

    My response :
    I think you are drawing your own assumptions here Dr J . Getting an annulment does not follow that your Brothers new wife had her children out of wedlock from her previous marriage . If your brothers wife had married with a sincere heart ( wether the marriage was licit or not), and subsequently had children from this marriage then she has not had her children out of wedlock as you have stated .

    You said :
    The beliefs about babies, who are innocent of any sins, going to “Limbo” if they died without being baptized was total nonsense to me. Now the Church has changed on this but why did they believe it in the first place?

    My response :
    The church has never “formally” taught that unbaptised children go to “limbo” . In fact the church has never taught conclusively on this subject one way or the other . So you are quite mistaken Dr J that the church has “changed its teaching” own this matter . The church entrusts all unbaptised children to the Mercy of God . We do , however , believe that all unbaptised children that die will remain in a state of perfect natural happiness for all eternity . That perfect happiness can only come from God . That makes perfect sense to me

    You said :
    Its no coincidence that the Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah performed miracles in front of witnesses

    My response :
    I have read about some of the miraculous deeds of Baha’u’llah . Did he ever raise people from the dead like Christ and the Apostles . Just curious , because I have never heard of Baha’u’llah doing this , and I am wondering if there are episodes of him raising people from the dead.I also read in a Bahai childrens book that Bahaullah bought medicines for someone . It may have been Abdul Baha , but I cannot remember for 100 % certainty . If you know about this story can you please clarify . If not it doesn’t really matter .

    As far as “prophecy fulfilled” by your Baha’u’llah . I am less than convinced of this . for the following reasons , but not limited to ;

    1. The name Baha’ullah ( Glory of God ) is a self appointed title and not one ascribed him from birth. It seems a little too opportunistic to automatically constitute references to the “glory of God” to Mirza Husayn Ali for the reasons above .The claims are far too subjective .

    2. We know from scripture the Jesus Christ himself is the Glory of God
    Hebrews 1:3 tells us such .There are further scriptural references that support this truth . The transfiguration of Christ and ultimately his physical resurrection are testimony to this fact .
    Again , I think It’s opportunistic and utterly unconvincing that Mirza Husayn Ali would be bestowing titles upon himself to that are properly due to Christ .

    I will leave it that , I don’t have the time to reply to everything you said

    God Bless

  7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Catholic_Church

    Most of the arguments in the above link are lodged against Catholicism by the other 38,000 Christian sects and denominations. They didn’t break away from the Church for no reason, it was the gradual corruption and decay of the Church from selling of indulgences to the mass crimes of molestation of boys by priests and the changing of central beliefs. So much of other Christians criticisms are in fact justified and logical.

    Baha’u’llah proclaims His Mission as the Return of Christ and proclaims the “earth is but one country and mankind its citizens”, He abolished slavery and all of a sudden there are incredible human, race and gender rights movements coupled with more inventions than all recorded history combined in 150 years. These inventions from air planes to internet are bringing the earth together as what He called, “one country” and you would argue that all of these events happened for no reason or because of Jesus? How about Christ’s promised return to gradually establish His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven? All of the mass inventions and explosion of technology came from the infusion of the Holy Spirit into world after the twin Manifestations of God declared their missions. Hence, the Bab and Baha’u’llah set down the plan for the New Jerusalem (see the book, He Cometh in Clouds) and it is gradually taking place as the destruction of the old world order including the Catholic Church is happening. All time low numbers of priests and nuns threaten the Church and its existence, equality and the elimination of celibacy are infiltrated the Church. People simply are Catholics on paper or have fallen away from the Church. The Church never drops anyone from their records so no one has any idea of its decrease in membership. All of the above things, including the endless murder and fighting between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland and Europe has created irrevocable divisions. The only hope is unity through the Baha’i Revelation, nothing else will work. These things happened for a Divine reason, not by chance.

    Baha’u’llahs miracles including raising his gardener from dead in front of eye witnesses are chronicled in the 4 volume series of book, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

    Bahá’u’lláh also speaks in this Tablet about miracles which are attributed to the Prophets. He states that one should not deny the performance of miracles by these Holy Souls, but emphasizes that miracles are not a conclusive proof of the authenticity of Their Messages. The greatest and the most evident sign of Prophethood has always been the Revelation of the Word of God. Everything created in this world is a miracle in itself if we look at it with the eye of discernment. For example, the outpouring of energy from the sun is a miracle indeed, for the mind of man could never have believed in such a phenomenon if he had not actually seen the radiance of the sun with his own eyes. In the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh there are many references to miracles. In all of these the Word revealed by the Prophet is regarded as the most potent force in the world. The creativeness of the Word is a miracle.

  8. BTW. there are an increasing numbers of scholarly works that parallel the miracles and lives of Jesus with such Manifestations as Buddha, Zoroaster and Krishna. From virgin births to resurrection cults, to scholars who show that the first gospel came out roughly 75 years AFTER Christ had died and the remaining ones up to 200 years after His death. The different bibles, translations and books indicate early conflicts and divisions soon after Christ’s death. Now Christian scholars like Dr. Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus, Jesus Interrupted etc.) and Bishop Spong are showing such corruption of texts and the reification of spiritual scripture by Church fathers. You need not pick on Baha’is you have way enough opposition within Christianity and its for a reason.

  9. BTW. there are an increasing numbers of scholarly works that parallel the miracles and lives of Jesus with such Manifestations as Buddha, Zoroaster and Krishna. From virgin births to resurrection cults prior to Jesus, much insight into New Testament doctrine is coming out. Moreover, many gospel scholars are showing that the first gospel came out roughly 75 years AFTER Christ had died and the remaining ones up to 200 years after His death, whereas all of Baha’u’llah writings are preserved in their original form with His pen, no original gospel manuscript exist. The 38,000 Christian sects and denominations are faced with trying to justify inseparable divisions and the different bibles, translations and interpretations of scripture, all which indicate early conflicts and divisions soon after Christ’s death. Now Christian scholars like Dr. Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus, Jesus Interrupted etc.) and Bishop Spong are showing such corruption of texts and the reification of spiritual scripture by Church fathers. You need not pick on Baha’is you have way enough opposition within Christianity and its for a reason.

  10. As former Catholic and Hand of the Cause William Sears said, by denying Baha’u’llah, you lose Jesus. In the Tablet of Ahmad, He warns you of serious eternal consequences for denying Him: “Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.”

  11. http://qctimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/defrocked-priest-james-janssen-says-i-m-very-sick/article_a5c49447-bccd-53f7-ae4f-c2c0332b38a7.html

    BTW, I did not see confession as a joke initially until FJ or Father Jensen came on the scene. Father Jensen who was our parish priest when I was in Junior High School and who later in life at age 75 was defrocked for molesting his nephew and then many other boys came forward to prosecute him. FJ had such a cavalier attitude of hearing confessions. He had what he called his posse of boys. They had sex parties with FJ and another priest. He would rarely even go in the confessional but just tell be to say my sins on the spot in front of him. I suppose you wouldn’t call that a joke? For over 60 years FJ molested boys and was simply transferred to different parishes in Iowa. His court transcripts are fully available and the crimes he and another priest did went unpunished due to his protection by the Bishop. This is the corruption that makes a mockery of the sacred, many cases of such priests nationwide–its happening all the time.

  12. YOU SAID ;
    Most of the arguments in the above link are lodged against Catholicism by the other 38,000 Christian sects and denominations. They didn’t break away from the Church for no reason, it was the gradual corruption and decay of the Church from selling of indulgences to the mass crimes of molestation of boys by priests and the changing of central beliefs. So much of other Christians criticisms are in fact justified and logical.

    1. Once again you have made multiple false assumptions . The church never allowed the selling of indulgences at any time in its history . there are no church teachings in its history can prove these false claims .
    But lets not allow the facts to get in the way of a good slander , hey.

    2. Mass crimes of child molestation . Could you possibly be any more overdramatic ????. As terrible as these crimes were , and yes they are despicable crimes , you are nonetheless
    a) grossly exaggerating
    b) neglecting to acknowledge the great social good the church undertakes because of your hatred and bias against the church .
    c) failing to realise that those crimes have absolutely nothing to do with church teaching whatsoever
    d) assuming that all the church and its priests are corrupt because of the crimes of a few

    Your claims of modern technology being the result of your Bahuallah are fallacious and is nothing more than a false equivalence .

    There were great advances in modern technology already taking place before this man even arrived on earth . It was inevitable that mankind was surging forward through the great industrial revolutions .

    You claim that the Holy Spirit brought about these modern changes and advances through the Bab and Bahuallah .

    Think about the untold deaths that are result of the high tech weapons and instruments of war .

    World war 1 and 2 and not to mention the wars that followed with their planes and tanks have enabled men to kill each other more quickly and effectively .

    Modern technology has not brought us closer to God

    If anything our world is now more self indulgent materialistic and violent than at any time in its history
    The internet has been abused by people indulging in pornography and there are those that have been hacking into peoples bank accounts sending viruses and corruption into the databases of businesses and governments .

    Lets have a look at what the great learned men of today think about God and their hatred of any God related . The great Antitheist scientists like Krauss and Dawkins are a demonstration than education will not bring man to a faith in God . Even when endowed with great minds to penetrate the mysteries of the universe , these people cannot see god because of their pride and ego’s

    With all its technology and learning man is more corrupt than ever .

    Lets look at the real mass crimes of our world especially the most detestable crime of abortion .If we are to believe you, then these high tech advanced medical procedures and equipment ushered in by your Bahaullah have led to the most obscene brutality in the history of mankind :

    The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth , not the spirit of technology .Technological advances are human endeavours , not spiritual ones . It is truth that sets us free , not technology .

    YOU SAID :
    How about Christ’s promised return to gradually establish His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven?

    Christ never promised to return to “gradually” establish his kingdom .

    What is very interesting is that an Angel of God told the disciples that Christ would return the same way he left , not the same way he came into the world .

    The many manifestations of the Most Holy Mother of Jesus i.e., lGuadalupe , Lourdes and Fatima, have been a great sign and confirmation for the Catholic faithful .

  13. Next topic to discuss is the topic of Bart Ehrman and Shelby Spong ,both of which I am familiar with .

    I have been reading a brilliant critique of Barts book( misquoting Jesus ) by a brilliant mind and new testament and Geek scholar. I forget his name but I will post it later . He and a plethora of others like William Lane Craig and the apologists at Tektoniks and an astounding arming of incredibly intelligent people who have utterly taken apart both Ehrman and Spong .I suggest googling “critique of Ehrman” or rebuttals of Ehrman were there are numerous rebuttals by scholars .

    No need to discuss this further , These guys have done all the hard work already . God Bless them .

  14. You are the one who hates enough to attack a Manifestation of God with a website like this, not a good idea and when you get to the next world God will show you that, I assure you, I have no website against the Catholic Church because I love it. Although its seen its better days, I believe its the original church of Christianity because our Guardian said that.

    Let me be clear I love the Catholic Church and don’t “hate it” as you suggest. Four out of my five aunts are nuns. I simply am trying to show to you that the Church has absolutely no social relevance today and its impotent, its not going to lead any kind of social or spiritual uplift, its way beyond that. Its a rural religion trying to survive in a modern civlization. Doctrines and senseless rituals do nothing for modern man today. Christianity gradually unfolded and the Catholic Church up until the Reformation was relevant. When Christians fought so much against each other Europeans did away with religion altogether, hence Dawkins and others began to take over their mentality. The Reformation occurred because of alot of bad things the Church was doing, which you know full well about. I have not exaggerated at all, the situation with defrocked priests and priests being protected by Bishops from their crimes is in the news and if you wish I will show you entire websites dedicated to this issue, don’t play dumb to this, you know its a fact. I have tried to show you that the Church has lost its influence in modern times as evidenced by the growth of secularism and the very bad things you blamed on the Baha’i Faith. Its actually the gradual decay of the Old World Order. Today, people do not want to become priests or nuns who do not marry. Christ said He would return to establish His kingdom on earth you sir have no idea in what way He will do this. When He came the first time, Christianity had a gradual development, it just didn’t spring into popularity. Also the destruction of the civilization around it was simultaneous happening.

    Such is the case with the Baha’i Revelation. So there is a dual process of positive growth which happened in Persia after Zoroaster proclaimed His mission and is the case of all civilization after a Manifestation comes and the decay of the Old World with the immorality and corruption you describe. This process is always gradual. We have, according to psycho historian Loyd DeMause more empathy and better treatment of children than in all recorded history today and over the past 150 years since the Baha’i Revelation, even with child abuse happening. Child abuse was on a much wider scale the farther back in history you get. So we have as part of the New World Order the growth of positive parenting (we are kinder to our children than in all of history today) yet the gradual destruction of the Old World Order with it irrelevant religions, their senseless rituals that once in illiterate rural cultures were relevant. divisions, murder and strife has taken over Christianity to the point of no return to the days of the Catholic Church being relevant to civilization.

  15. I want to talk about something which I think needs to be discussed further

    Dr J quotes William Sears with the following .
    As former Catholic and Hand of the Cause William Sears said, by denying Baha’u’llah, you lose Jesus. In the Tablet of Ahmad, He warns you of serious eternal consequences for denying Him:

    Christians who know , love , pray to , and worship Christ as their Lord God and savour are denying Christ by not giving honours to someone else . What an utterly absurd proposition

    The reason why I want to discuss this is because if christians are to accept bahaullah , they must and will ultimately diminish Christ and cease to give him his due in order to exalt a different person altogether namely bahaullah .

    No Christian person should ever consider that statement by Sears to have any merit whatsoever .

    Christians do not merely honour Christ , we worship him . He is our God He is the source of all goodness and he is the creator of the entire universe .

    He is the Second person of the holy trinity and the sole Son of the Eternal father who lives and reigns as King of Heaven .

    He came into this world to die for each and every persons sins as an act of unparalleled love > he purchased for us the rewards of eternal salvation by the spilling of his blood .

    Without his sacrifice no person could merit heaven.

    His Holy Mother Mary is the Queen of heaven and her unique personhood has no equal amongst any human being save Christ .

    She is the spotless Maid and she is the Immaculate conception .

    She is also our mediator with Christ who is God .

    She is the medaitrix of all her Sons graces. Mary who is the new eve and her Son Jesus who is the new Adam will have victory over satan as promised in Genisis .

    Mary is the mother of all humanity . It is only through her that we can truly know Christ as he aught . She knew him better than any person that has ever lived .

    To become Bahai means to no longer worship Jesus as God and Saviour but instead exalt another in his place

    Christians give Jesus his proper due , Bahai;s do not

    The Bahaullah is “JESUS REPLACED” not “JESUS RETURNED”

    Mary , like the Great Mother she is , has manifested herself on many occasions , and has always asked her Children to repent and return to HER SON. She asks for us all to make reparation for sins committed against God by attending the sacrifice of the mass , praying the rosary , fasting , and works of mercy .

    She said that God was gravely indignant at the state of humanity

    Mary warns us that if we do not heed her requests then humanity will suffer grave consequences .

    The three children were shown a vision of hell and Mary told the children that many souls will perish if they do not return to her Son

    The messages of Fatima are particularly important for this conversation because she manifested herself after Bahaullah departed from this earth . She never mentioned on any occasion that her son had returned

    We can be confident as Christians that it will the the son of Mary , the true Jesus Christ who will return , and not someone else . Lets take the advise our Mother in heaven ,and do the things she asks . She who is the Mother of the Eternal Word .We Christians must refrain from the suggestions that we should give honour to another individual or that we are denying Christ by denying Bahaullah , because its simply false .

    God bless

  16. Your assertion that the church has no social relevance is another false statement that you have made .

    catholic social teaching is inspiring and totally relevant .

    I can only suspect that you have asbsolutely no idea what you are talking about .Have you ever read anything about catholic social teaching

    I completely reject your claim that the church offers nothing to the social fabric of the world . thats just your anti-catholic bias That is just utterly untrue .

    You have a very tatted view of church that is obviously due to your bad experiences and that is partly where your disdain comes from

    You claim to love the church . Your words betray you

    You quote a psychologist claiming that we treat children better today than ever before . What do you call crushing of the sculls of unborn children inside their mothers womb , or the use of poisoning to procure an abortion , or the tearing of of their little limbs from their torso and so on and so forth .

    We are murdering unborn children at an abscenely alarming rate and you think that we have advanced the treatment of children since the advent of the Bahaullah. You must be joking , seriously .

    You make utterly bazaar statements like , “people don’t want to become priests and nuns”. Yes they do and I know some . What the hell are talking about Dr J . You have your head so far buried in the sand its not funny .

    The church is alive and relevant and loved . Its wonderful rich and fulfilling being a catholic and I am sorry you did not experience the church as and many others have .

  17. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/ia-davenport/parishes.htm

    I am from Iowa, the above website tracks Catholic Bishops who have protected priests from criminal prosecution, like Father Jensen and others. When I moved to Louisiana I saw the same thing going on there as well. There are websites which will provide you with proof should you want it. Your put downs and crass comments of me don’t show much Christian love, nor will they change the truth. Honestly you are living in a fantasy world of a bygone era of the Church when it was more socially relevant. The Catholic Church has lost its social influence and power to influence Europe or any country to come back to God, be moral and less materialistic. The Church is in a slow dying process as an institution which represents the Old World Order, its decay in influence and social relevance has been going on since the Reformation and sped up via the Industrial Revolution. The fact that neither Popes nor the Church have not been able to turn the tide of secularization in either Europe or America is positive proof of that assertion, its time for a new religion and a spiritual revolution! When Christ came the first time, His influence and the growth of Christianity took hundreds of years to manifest itself. Such is the case with Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith, it will take time for the world to take in the social principles and spiritual message He has brought to this planet. No hateful website like yours will matter, its a steam roller and its from God so your dirty hands will not cleanse it.

    I have a wealth of research articles that chronicle the impotency of older religions (e.g. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism etc.), document their inabilities to turn back the tide of secularization. In my field of Sociology, this fact is coming out in article after article in the Sociology of Religion. Honestly any fair person, which isn’t you, would admit this reality of the older religions being unable to have any social influence at all and these social trends are only getting worse. Since the older religions cannot do this, only a spiritual revolution of a new religion which is ecumenical and world embracing can bring morality and detachment to an overly materialistic civilization.

    Sadly, you are stuck in a time warp living in the Middle Ages and trying to build a straw man against the Baha’i Revelation, fantasying about a Catholic Church which has essentially lost its authority and relevance today. This process has really been sped up since the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Take Czechs for example, half of the Czechs left the Catholic Church when they came to America. In South America Evangelicals are taking former Catholics by the droves. When I was in Northern Ireland I saw what Catholic and Protestant terrorist groups had done to the country and the population since the 1600s. Today, we see great walls separating Catholic from Protestant neighborhoods, why when they both are Christians? The two groups have segregated schools and sports programs keeping their children from integrating, similar to Blacks and Whites in the Jim Crow South in America. Thank God the Baha’is have been a driving force in trying to bring Catholics and Protestants to the table for dialogue and unity. The Baha’i Faiths message is the oneness of religion, oneness of God (He is not divided into three) and the oneness of humankind (Baha’u’llah was the first Prophet of God to abolish slavery, a practice advocated in the Bible in both the New and Old Testaments). Since He declared His mission in 1863 we have seen more and more human rights for Blacks and after He declared the equality of men and women (not found in Catholic practice or the New Testament) there have been women’s rights and voting privileges granted to women. Of course you wouldn’t credit these miraculous events to Baha’u’llah (you don’t even have the respect for the Lord of Lords to properly spell and capitalize His name when I show that respect for Jesus).

    I am done with this waste of time talking with you but will leave you with the message of Baha’u’llah (the return of the Spirit of Christ) that He wrote to the Pope before he was run out of the Vatican. Baha’u’llah also addressed Pope Pius IX in majestic language, calling upon him to recognize in this day the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus Christ:

    . . . Call thou to remembrance Him Who was the Spirit [Jesus], Who, when He came, the most learned of His age pronounced judgement against Him in His own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take heed, then, ye men of understanding heart! Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself, lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light. . . . Consider those who opposed the Son [Jesus], when He came unto them with sovereignty and power. How many the Pharisees who were waiting to behold Him, and were lamenting over their separation from Him! And yet, when the fragrance of His coming was wafted over them, and His beauty was unveiled, they turned aside from Him and disputed with Him. . . . None save a very few, who were destitute of any power amongst men, turned towards His face. And yet today every man endowed with power and invested with sovereignty prideth himself on His Name! In like manner, consider how numerous, in these days, are the monks who, in My Name, have secluded themselves in their churches, and who, when the appointed time was fulfilled, and We unveiled Our beauty, knew Us not, though they call upon Me at eventide and at dawn. . . . . . . The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous! . . . This is the day whereon the Rock [Peter] crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” – Summons of the Lord of Hosts, paragraphs 106, 108, 112.

    The supreme pontiff did not respond.


  18. I forgot to mention the people in South America turning away from Catholicism to Evangelical Protestant churches in hopes of finding something relevant to modernity. That’s only another social trend which shows the growing impotency of the Catholic Church but I don’t want to confuse you with too many facts and will let you continue in your hateful attacks of God’s Messenger for this Day. If Baha’u’llah is who He says He is and you are wrong, you have in fact denied Jesus because the two are one.

  19. The Christians of the west shall lead the world to Baha’u’llah.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 2- A New View of History

    And what about us? What about them us? What about the millions of people who make up the mankind” that Baha’u’llah sought to protect from the ignorance of kings and despots? Baha’u’llah’s Message is directed not only to governments but to each individual human being. How odd that our civilization which harnessed the atom, pushed space, discovered so many miraculous secrets of nature, and made so many brilliant advancements in all the sciences, should have left the spiritual realm almost totally unexplored.

    How did it happen that humanity, with its gigantic resources and unequaled brilliance, missed the most important truth of all: a moral and spiritual understanding of history? The real purpose of life, the Baha’i Teachings point out, is the development of a praiseworthy character. The building of moral and ethical virtues is the true business of life for both men and nations.

    Anything that advances this goal is of value and should be encouraged. Anything that hampers, delays, or prevents it, is useless and should be discarded. All life revolves around this goal. It is the reason for existence. Every event in life depends for its ultimate usefulness and value on its direct or indirect connection with this main purpose. It is worthwhile if it forwards this great theme. It is worthless if it does not.

    Any philosophy which does not advance in some way this perspective of life is futile. Any person who devotes himself to something else such as acquiring wealth, seeking pleasure, luxury, chasing ambition, reputation or conquest, and thinks of that goal as having in itself an independent value and importance separate from the spiritual and moral motivation of his life having in itself an independent value separate from the spiritual and moral motivation of his life is, sooner or later, doomed to disillusionment and unhappiness. Such a person is without a real purpose in life. He will be prone to depression and self-destruction in one form or another. He will gradually destroy himself physically or morally or both, through despair or through the excessive physical pleasure by which he seeks in vain to escape his destiny.

    That is the tragedy that is taking place on a planetary scale today. No one loves us. Not our mothers, our fathers, our children, our wives, our husbands, our sweethearts. No one.

    Our families and friends love only the inner qualities we possess — the kindness, generosity, compassion, tenderness, love, justice, fairness, gentleness, consideration; these are the things they love. As we increase these qualities in our lives, their love for us increases. As we lose these virtues, their love for us withers and dies away. And what is true of individuals is also true of nations or civilizations. To acquire these inward moral and ethical virtues is the real business of life, for both the individual soul and society.

    Every other goal is meaningless by comparison. The world today has lost most of these virtues. It continues to lose more. Both men and nations are drifting on the tide of empty materialism. Something must reverse the current. That is why Baha’u’llah has come. That is the Mission of His Faith. The Churches can find no remedy because they have lost their Divine Physician, Christ. His Spirit left them over a century ago when He returned in the glory of the Father, Baha’u’llah, and the churches and their Leaders turned their back on Him- just as they had the first time. The same is true of each of the other great religions of the past. Had this not been the case, the clergy of the world’s religions would have responded to the Message for which they claimed they had been yearning for centuries. Because the Messenger spoke directly to them, individually and collectively, as clearly as He addressed the kings.

    He spoke, for example, to Pope Pius the IX. And the story of that brief encounter and its reverberations in modern history may well be the most dramatic chapter of the entire spiritual drama.

    Baha’u’llah told the Pope that He, Baha’u’llah, was the Father Who had been promised by Christ, the Son. The very One the Pope was awaiting; the One in Whose Name the Pontiff held his position.

    There has been only a century of silence from the church. But the seeds were sown, and let us see what took place a hundred years later.

    “O Supreme Pontiff!”

    Chapter 14
    Section 3- Echoes from the Past

    How many Christians have made a study of the now famous Pastoral Letter of Pope John XXIII, the Encylical “Pacem in Terris” (Peace on Earth)? Most Protestants perhaps couldn’t have cared less. But how many Catholics are aware of its contents?

    For the origins of this Encyclical, which had such far-reaching effects on the 2.000 year old Roman Catholic Church, we must turn back to the words Baha’u’llah addressed to Pope John’s predecessor, Pius IX, in 1869.

    Baha’u’llah told the Pontiff bluntly that the “Father” had come had come as promised by the “Son,” Jesus the Christ. He, Himself, Baha’u’llah said, was that Father.

    The response was less than joyful.

    Perhaps that attitude was understandable a hundred years ago. Regrettable, but understandable. The world head of any religion is not likely to be stirred to his depths when his position of eminence is challenged; especially by such a seemingly preposterous claim; written from a penal colony prison by a condemned Exile.

    Caiaphas didn’t go into spasms of ecstasy when Christ told him He was the “Son of God.” And he met Jesus face to face. Instead, he called Christ a blasphemer.

    We can imagine then the reaction generated by Baha’u’llah’s letter to the Pope. No one even bothered to call Him a blasphemer, although His claim was even more presumptuous than Christ’s. Nor did the Curia exhibit the annoyance and alarm which had been aroused among several of the kings. Instead, a curtain of silence descended around the entire subject.

    Then, in the exact year and exact month of the one hundredth anniversary of Baha’u’llah’s Declaration to the world proclaiming that the sacred promise in all the holy Books had been fulfilled. Pope John XXIII issued His Encyclical Letter which “received world wide acclaim.”

    The praise was justified. Not only did the Encylical deal with the problems facing the world, but Pope John himself was a true lover of his fellow man, a saintly human being. In that Encyclical, the Supreme Pontiff spoke of the following subjects:

    World peace
    A world community
    Search after truth
    Universal education
    Equality between men and women
    The oneness of mankind
    The oneness of God
    The harmony of science and religion
    A warning concerning atomic energy
    A spiritual solution to the economic problem

    Do these ideas sound familiar?

    They are one and all principles of the Baha’i Faith.

    They are Teachings and Counsels which Baha’u’llah gave to the kings and religious leaders of the world over a century before the Pontiff finally spoke out, exactly one hundred years afterward. How powerfully those words of Baha’u’llah, spoken so long ago, to a Pope in Rome, now ring through the halls of history after a century: “0 Supreme Pontiff! Incline thine ear unto that which the Fashioner of moldering bones counselleth thee.”

    Pope John XXIII, because of his sincere love of humanity, and his wise guidance to a troubled world, received the Nobel Prize for peace. He was admired and lauded in all parts of the world by both public and press.

    Yet, he had no more than echoed, faintly at that, and only after one hundred years, the Teachings of Baha’u’llah. He had done no more than to share with mankind ideals which had been denied to the world for a century by the leaders of men, both religious and secular.

    What was Baha’u’llah’s reward?

    He was scourged, chained, banished and imprisoned for nearly half a century. He was denounced as an enemy of religion and civil order.

    The most bitter and persistent of those denouncing His Teachings, whether in Persia, Turkey, or the near east, had been the clergy. The Muslim clergy indeed had taken the lead, but it is an unhappy fact that those who did most to spread these early slanders were Christians, missionaries who feared the loss of their jealously guarded flocks. Their church, however, had only to experience the delayed effects of the Revelation they had so long awaited.

    “Emerge from your palace!”

    Chapter 14
    Section 4- More Echoes from the Same Pen

    It is almost impossible to turn to any great event taking place in the religious world today without tracing its inspiration to the words which Baha’u’llah addressed so long ago to the ecclesiastics of the nineteenth century.

    How many Catholics are aware of the significance of the visit of Pope Paul V1 to the United Nations? How many Christians are aware of the spiritual implications of the Pope’s visit to the World Council of Churches in Switzerland? Or to Kampala, Uganda? All of these events have their “roots” in Baha’u’llah’s Letter written to a Pope in Rome over a century ago.

    Baha’u’llah called upon Pope Pius IX to “emerge” from his “palaces” and “speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven” Baha’u’llah urged Pope Pius to “sell the embellished ornaments” he possessed and “expend them in the path of God.” Baha’u’llah was not asking the Pope to do anything He had not already done Himself in a fuller measure.

    When the hour came for Baha’u’llah to carry out bidding of the Almighty, He was in the “hey-day of His life.” Yet He flung aside “every consideration of earthly fame, wealth and position.” Baha’u’llah was a nobleman of the Province of Nur in Persia. Baha’u’llah cast them all aside, although He knew only too well where such a decision would lead Him.

    During those hours when Pope Pius IX rode the crest of popularity and sovereignty, Baha’u’llah had fallen from the highest to the lowest estate, from wealth to poverty, from freedom to imprisonment.

    Baha’u’llah thanked God for such “tribulations” saying: “The throat Thou didst accustom to the touch of silk Thou hast, in the end, clasped with strong chains, and the body Thou didst ease with brocades and velvets Thou hast at last subjected to the abasement of a dungeon.”

    Baha’u’llah now urged the Pontiff to follow this example. He told the Pope to leave his “palace” and to assist the Father, and to “proffer” His (Baha’u’llah’s) Teachings to the “people of all faiths.”

    In the prison city from which Baha’u’llah sent His Letter to Pius IX, He wrote:

    “The Ancient Beauty (Baha’u’llah) hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness.”

    Such tasks should have been the business of the Pope as well. The Pope declared himself to be the Vicar of Christ on earth. Baha’u’llah told him that the Promised One Whom he awaited had come. The returned Christ was standing before his eyes.

    Baha’u’llah warned the Pope not to reject Him because His Name was different than he expected:

    “O Pope . . . Beware lest any name debar thee from God… Dwellest thou in palaces whilst He Who is the King of Revelation liveth in the most desolate of abodes? Leave them unto such as desire them, and set thy face with joy and delight toward the Kingdom . . . ”

    Pope Pius did none of these things.

    The Pope was soon to suffer the same loss of his worldly kingdom as had the secular rulers.

    In those days, Pius IX was a temporal as well as a spiritual king. As with his fellow monarchs, however, he found himself caught up in the forces released by the “Day of God.” Baha’u’llah had revealed His Epistle to Pius IX, King Victor Emmanuel I suddenly declared war with the Papal States. The royalist troops had entered Rome and seized it.

    The following morning, as the cannonade began, the Pope ordered the white flag to be hoisted above the dome of St. Peter. The Pope shut himself up in the buildings left to him and declared himself to be “the Prisoner of the Vatican.” “Rome, the ‘Eternal City upon which rest twenty-five centuries of glory,’ and which the Popes had ruled in unchallengeable right for ten centuries, finally became the seat of the new kingdom, and the scene of that humiliation which Baha’u’llah had anticipated and which the Prisoner of the Vatican had imposed upon himself.”

    The commands of God in the tablet to the Pope, however, remained to be carried out. The fall of Pius IX did not change the obligation on those who declared themselves the vicars on earth of Jesus Christ. Pope John was the first Pontiff unwittingly out the role assigned to the papacy. His successor, Pope Paul VI, has carried this response much further, and much less willingly. Paul answered Baha’u’llah’s century-old “summons” to “emerge” from the Lateran “palace” and go out “amidst the peoples of the world.” So far he has visited Africa, Asia, Latin America, North America and Europe, thus breaking with twenty centuries of papal tradition.

    One of the most important visits of Pope Paul VI was to the United Nations headquarters in New York City. There he did “speak out” among the leaders of men. He did “exhort” them to “justice” and to be mindful of the things in the holy “Book” of God. Why is this particular event interesting to the student of Baha’u’llah’s story?

    For the following reasons, to give only a few:

    1. Baha’u’llah called upon the kings and leaders of men to establish such an international Body as the United Nations over a century ago.
    2. His son Abdu’l-Baha, visited New York City over three quarters of a century ago. While there, he explained the significances of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant with the peoples of the world. New York City, the United Nations world headquarters, has been named in the Baha’i Writings as the “City of the Covenant” of Baha’u’llah.

    3. Abdu’l-Baha also visited California. While in the shadow of San Francisco, Abdu’l-Baha said that California was worthy to raise the first banner of International Peace. In San Francisco, some thirty years after His visit, The United Nations Charter was written, and the blue and white flag of the U.N., a symbol of peace, was created.

    How remarkable that in this involuntary manner a Pope had answered God’s century-old “summons.”

    While addressing the United Nations, Pope Paul VI, like John XXIII before him, echoed the very principles which Baha’u’llah had given to the world so long ago.

    It is a tragedy for us all that it took over a hundred years! It is a greater tragedy that the Pontiff, a sincere and holy man, was far too late for his words to have any effect. Only one thing could have made his address relevant. He could have repeated Baha’u’llah’s words to his predecessor,

    “He who is the Lord of Lords is come… He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into the fire that which befitteth it.”

    The Pope’s rendezvous with history, however, was not yet complete. Two other specific tasks had been appointed to his office. His predecessors had let them pass, and God would wait no longer.

    Impelled as by an unseen hand, the Pontiff proceeded on the course laid out for him a hundred years earlier.

    “Enter ye into wedlock, so there may appear from you those who will praise God.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 5- O Concourse of Priests

    Baha’u’llah invited the Pope to visit Him in the Holy Land.

    If the Pope loved and remembered Christ, he would open his heart
    to Baha’u’llah.

    “Reliance” on God would be the only “provision” he would need for such a journey.

    It was clear that if he, the Pope, were truly waiting, truly seeking, he would not fail to investigate a claim which had the stupendous moral authority which Baha’u’llah’s reputation was now giving to His words. If the Pope did not come himself, there were hundreds whom he could send.

    The journey was never made. There was only silence from the Church. A century of silence.

    And then one hundred years later, Pope Paul VI visited the Holy Land. Again breaking all precedent, and for reasons which were never made clear, he left Rome and visited the land to which the Messenger of God had summoned his predecessor. Paul VI was accorded a huge welcome, similar to that which had greeted Emperor Franz Josef and Kaiser William I so long before him. It was hailed as a great event in the press. A Pope had come at last to the Holy Land.

    Baha’u’llah came as a Prisoner and an Exile, despised and imprisoned. The “Vicar” who sat on His throne” and held that seat of honor in the Promised One’s Name, against the day of His return, was showered with praise and blessings.

    It was century too late. The Promised One was longer there. Nor did Pope Paul seek to investigate the flourishing center whose Shrines and gardens covered the slope of Mount Carmel in memory of the Prisoner of ‘Akka.

    During the visit of Pope Paul VI to Israel, news arrived at the World Center of the Baha’i Faith announcing that the Teachings of Baha’u’llah, the Glory of the Lord, were well established all over the world. Today over 2,100 tribes, races and ethnic groups in over 130,000 different places on the planet.

    This had been envisioned by Habakkuk :

    “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

    The press, television and radio were all reporting the wrong story. But that had happened before, too.

    There on the side of Mount Carmel, the Vinyard of God, stood the World Seat of that “Kingdom” which the Pope and over five hundred million Catholics extolled daily in their prayers.

    The “Kingdom” had come. God’s Will had been “done” on earth as promised in the Lord’s prayer. The Christ-promised Kingdom had appeared in the exact Spot foretold in passage after passage from the Holy Book revered by the Pope and his people. But, unhappily, neither Catholics nor Protestants were aware of it.

    Surely the echo of Baha’u’llah’s Voice must have reverberated through those Holy hills on the occasion of Pope Paul’s visit. Like rolling thunder those Words must have resounded through Zion, Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, where they were originally uttered:

    “0 Pope?…Lo! The Father is come.” “0 concourse of Patriarchs! He Whom ye were promised in the Tablets is come.”

    “0 concourse of Archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared.”

    “0 Concourse of Bishops!…He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven.”

    “0 Concourse of Priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches…” ‘The Lord is come in His great glory!'”

    “0 Concourse of Monks!…Come forth by My leave…Thus biddeth you the King of the Day of Reckoning… Enter ye into wedlock, that after you someone may fill your place.”

    “0 Concourse of Christians!…Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…O people of the Gospel! . . . Verily, He (Jesus) said: ‘Come after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that we may make you quickeners of mankind.'”

    Ironically, Baha’u’llah’s Letter to Pope Pius IX had repeatedly warned the Pontiff not to make the same mistake the high priests and religious leaders made in the days of Christ. Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Thou, in truth, art one of the suns of the heaven of His names. Guard thyself; lest darkness spread its veils over thee, and fold thee away from His light.”

    Christ Himself had warned against such a calamity. In the chapter of Matthew in which Jesus gave so many proofs of the time of His coming, He also warns that the sun shall be “darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

    The meaning, Baha’u’llah explained, is clear. The “moons” are those religious leaders who take their light from the “Sun” of Christ. Such “moons” and “stars” fade away each morning when the Sun of a new day dawns. In like manner, when the “Sun” of Christ returns, the Sun of the past day is “darkened.” If the “moon” refuses the Light of the new Sun, it too is “darkened” and sheds no light on the problems of men.

    This was the meaning of Baha’u’llah’s Words when He entreated such religious leaders not to turn away from Him:

    “Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth.”

    One more task remained to the itinerant and record-breaking Pope Paul.

    Paul visited the World Council of Churches in Switzerland in June, 1969, thus bringing together leaders from both the catholic and Protestant Faiths. That visit took place one hundred years after Baha’u’llah had urged a Pope in Rome to do precisely that: to offer His Teachings to the other religious leaders of mankind. First “drink” of the Words yourself, Baha’u’llah had instructed Pius IX, then “proffer” them to the “peoples of all faiths.”

    The World Council of Protestant Churches had met before. During one of their international gatherings, the press reported that the delegates found it “impossible to reach a vote” on the subject of Christ’s return. Delegates from 163 denominations from 48 countries “disagreed sharply and fundamentally” on the question of “whether the Christian hope for the establishment of God’s kingdom can be fulfilled in this world or only after the second coming of Christ.”

    He had come, and He had gone!

    For over a century and a quarter, for nearly thirteen decades, the Bab, Baha’u’llah, ‘Abdu’l-Baha, and the followers of Baha’u’llah now flooding the world in over 30.000 different centers in all parts of the planet, have been telling the Christian world that Christ has already returned. He has come and He has gone, just as He the Bible that He would. Christ cautioned that although “all eyes shall see His glory,” He would come “as a thief in the night.” The parable He told made it clear that the divine “thief” would have come and gone! It happened over a hundred years ago! And that is why a world body of the Christian Faith spent hours debating whether they could establish Christ’s Kingdom now or only after He returned. That is why a Catholic Pope broke all precedents and went to meet with them.

    Tragically, they had nothing to say to one another when they met. The Pope did not, in fact, did not understand the impulse which had sent him there. And he demonstrated no awareness of the one message which could have had any relevance for his audience.

    And so they all went home.

    “Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.”

    Chapter 14
    Section 6- Blind Leaders

    Baha’u’llah has written thus of the clergy of His time:

    “When We observed carefully, We discovered that Our enemies are, for the most part, the divines…”

    He addressed them directly:

    “How long will ye . . . level the spears of hatred at the face of Baha?…follow not your desires which have altered the face of creation.”

    Baha’u’llah tried to open their eyes and ears so they might hear that “new song” spoken of by Isaiah. He said:

    “Purify your eyes that they may hearken unto the voice of God . . . can any one of you race with the Divine Youth in the arena of wisdom and utterance, or soar with him in the heaven of inner meaning and explanation? …can the one possessed of wooden legs resist him whose feet God hath made of steel? Nay, by Him Who illumineth the whole of creation!”

    Baha’u’llah offered an ocean of proof the religious leaders of all Faiths that He was the One they awaited. Yet many not only rejected Baha’u’llah, but they actively opposed, persecuted and tried to stamp out both Baha’u’llah and His Teachings.

    Almost without exception, religious leaders have taken the lead in holding shut the door whenever their followers became interested in the Message of Baha’u’llah.

    Their attacks on the Revelation and their willingness to retell slanders passed on to them by Muslim clergy carries discouraging echoes of the similar actions in the early days of Christianity by the same sort of religious opponents.

    No wonder Baha’u’llah was to write to such clergymen:

    O ye that are foolish yet have a name to be wise! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of the shepherd, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon my flock.”

    It is also not surprising that Christ Himself would warn against such unseeing shepherds of His flock. Jesus said:

    “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the ditch.”

    Yet Baha’u’llah in no way sought to degrade or belittle the importance of the world’s religious leaders. Rather, He praised unreservedly those religious leaders whose actions and conduct conform to their words. He has said that:

    “The guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls.”

    Of such a sincere religious leader, whatever his religion or denomination, Baha’u’llah has also written:

    “The inmates of Paradise, and the dwellers of the sacred Folds, bless him at eventide and at dawn.”

    Such spiritual giants, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or of any other religion are “as the spirit to the body of the world.” Baha’u’llah declares and “as an eye unto the world.”

    It was two Christian clergymen, from the missionary field, who first introduced the Baha’i Faith to America in 1893 at the World Parliament of Religions. One wrote the paper describing the “Christ-like” sentiments of Baha’u’llah. The other read the document to the assembled audience.

    Over four hundred outstanding priests of the Muslim Faith, some of them the most illustrious in the land, recognized and accepted the Bab and Baha’u’llah as the promised Messengers of God. They made great sacrifices for their faith. Many were martyred.

    Clergy of all Faiths have since embraced the Teachings of Baha’u’llah, from Catholic priests to Buddhist monks. But in almost every instance they have been shunned by their former colleagues, belittled, ridiculed, persecuted, and in some instances killed.

    It is too late to patch up and sew together a pathetically fragmented Christianity. Hundreds and hundreds of sects in a patchwork quilt of curious variations compete with each other for the Body of Christ. Even the hopeful signs of an ecumenical drawing together is but the unwitting results of Baha’u’llah’s Message of oneness. Almost against their will the unifying forces of life drive these broken and tattered pieces before the wind toward one common destination — unity.

    And if all the multitude of Christian sects united, there would still remain Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, agnostics, atheists and primitive peoples. Baha’u’llah, the Father, is reaching out an embrace to all religions and all peoples, not just to Christianity alone.

    Baha’u’llah was saddened at the apathy of the Christian masses who had been given so many opportunities, yet who stood by indifferently while multitudes from other religious heritages entered the Faith of God ahead of them:

    “O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate . . . Open the doors of your hearts. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face?”

    In a poetic reference to His own appearance in the East as foretold in Scripture, and His exile to the land of Jesus, where His Kingdom was established, He asks:

    “O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and traveled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him [Jesus]?”

  20. Finally, let us put to rest with other Christians and members of world religions the fallacies at Lourdes and Fatima

    In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France, a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as “the Immaculate Conception,” appeared to her some 18 times.* You’d think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged “mother of a god” was: “Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world.” Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.

    To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous’s claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that’s a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. “From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914.”* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you’re thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn’t be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?

    Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.

    The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer…well, he wasn’t really dead or she didn’t really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression “Lourdes effect” to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It’s certainly not a matter of difficulty.

    The grotto near Lourdes in 1858

    Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water’s free if you go there. For those who can’t make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100€ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.

    Fatima “prophecy”

    Lúcia de Jesus dos SantosLúcia de Jesus dos Santos (1907-2005) of Fatima, Portugal, grew up to become a Catholic nun known as Sister Lúcia of Fátima. As a child of nine or ten she and two cousins claimed the Virgin Mary appeared to them in the sky above a field where they were tending sheep. Perhaps they had a collective hallucination. Perhaps the ghost of a person who has been dead for 2,000 years and who is thought by Catholics to be the human mother of a godman really did choose three Portuguese children to tell them what their parents, relatives, priests, and nuns had been telling them all their lives: Sin and you’ll go to hell. Lúcia also claimed that Mary told them three secrets. In 1941, after her cousins had died of the flu, Lúcia “revealed” two of the secrets. She kept the third secret a secret, however, until she thought she was on her own deathbed.

    The first two secrets involved a vision of hell and a prophecy that WWI would end–good call in 1941–and that if people didn’t shape up there would be another war soon. Perfect record, so far. In 1944, Lúcia wrote down the third secret when ordered to do so by Dom Jose Alves Correia da Silva, the bishop of the diocese of Leiria-Fatima. The third secret was sealed in an envelope that was opened in 2000.
    A large cult following grew out of these religious fantasies and pilgrims from all over the world still beat a path to Fatima to pray, do penance, leave money, and hope for a miracle. Many devout followers were sure that Mary had told the children when the world was going to end. They were gravely disappointed when it was revealed that the expected doomsday “prophecy” or “vision,” though apocalyptic after a fashion, didn’t say much more than repent or you’ll be sorry! Sister Lucy’s vision of arrows and bullets slaughtering popes, bishops, and priests might bring a smile to a few anti-clerics, however. Below is an English translation of the Fatima “prophecy”:

    ….at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!’. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it’ a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father’. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.*

    Lúcia was a person who lived in a “delirious world of infantile fantasies” and suffered “religious hallucinations.” That is how ex-friar Mario de Oliveira described her (Sunday-Times, UK, June 29, 2000). He went much further in his claims, accusing the clergy of Ourem and the Catholic Church of psychological abuse. Father Mario de Oliveira claims the two children who died from the flu died due to religious fasting. Fatima, he says, is a hoax kept alive because of the attention it gets and the money it makes.* Lucy and her cousins were certainly delusional and the Catholic Church certainly exploited their delusions. Were the children of Fatima pious frauds or innocent victims of indoctrination? I lean toward the latter.

    Lúcia was a 93-year-old cloistered Carmelite nun when the third secret was revealed to the world. Apparently, the cloistered life, for all its austerity, didn’t kill her. When the third secret was revealed, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later to become Pope Benedict XVI), said that she might have conjured her vision from devotional books. According to the Sunday-Times (UK, June 29, 2000), many people in Portugal and beyond were angry because the secret was not a doomsday prophecy, thus making their recent penitence and contributions unnecessary. Some conspiracy mongers think the 3rd prophecy is a forgery, but the vision is so generic and pointless as to make that notion seem absurd even if true.

    See also Lourdes.

    further reading

    Hume, David. An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X “Of Miracles,” (1748), Bobbs-Merrill, Library of Liberal Arts edition.

    Nickell, Joe. Looking For A Miracle: Weeping Icons, Relics, Stigmata, Visions and Healing Cures (Prometheus Books: Buffalo, N.Y., 1993).

    “Miraculous” Phenomena, by Joe Nickell, in The Encyclopedia of the Paranormal edited by Gordon Stein (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1996).

  21. Your contiuous assertion that the church has no relevance is beyond rediculous and goes to the point of being malicious . This is the true Spirit of Bahaullah . You Echo his maliciousness of religion with by your disdain . Any information regardless of how true it is will do for you . You cherry pick all your information and present them as proofs I can hardly take you seriously . It is quite obvious Dr J that you are going to submit so much information that it would be impossible to rebut all your comments . Well that’s fine . .You obviously have have a great deal of time on your hands , but I do not . But I will answer your posts and refute what much of you have said as I have done in all your previous posts . You present many non sequitur arguments ,made numerous false assumptions , used biased sources like newspapers who site disgruntled ex churchmen , credited bad scholars like Bart Ehrman and Shelby Spong as your so called proofs of your arguments , presented illogical arguments such as cheery picking favourable historical data to fit your claims about Bahaullah whilst you overlook the other factors and negative data which contradicts your claims about Bahaullah . You refence statements made by Pope benedict regarding Lucia but do not site a source. In Particular I am going to rebutt your slanted view on Fatima too as I have already done on a Bahai blog recently .

  22. Why is my assertion that Catholicism is outdated malicious? Is it anymore malicious or ridiculous than your continual pursuit of disproving and maliciously attacking Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i beliefs? You don’t want dialog you want to simply prove you are right, be honest and admit it, right? Your entire website is for two reasons: to prove you made the right decision in denying Baha’u’llah and becoming a Catholic and to show how Baha’i theology is flawed or wrong, right? But you appear to like to place yourself in a more lofty position as not being malicious and others who disprove your assertions as “malicious”, it would be funny if it were not so sad. You are being a hypocrite, plain and simple. You are way more malicious in attacking people who disagree with you than I have been, if you are fair you would have to admit that.

    You know that the Catholic Church is slowly giving way to Christian evangelicalism and secularism worldwide. Its lost its influence on the country of Italy let alone societies worldwide or do you think it can somehow create a spiritual Renaissance doing away with secularism and materialism in Europe or America? But you think that in some magic way the Catholic Church will bring all these people into their fold?

    Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.

    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  23. Your position is malicious because you make utterly false assumptions about catholic spirituality and the church .
    All this from a faith that claims it will unify the world . I have disagreed with your claims about Bahaullah being Jesus and have good reason , but
    I have never said that your religion is irrelevant , as you have
    I have never referenced shonky scholars , as you have
    I have not made false assumptions about Bahai teaching , as you have mine
    You glossed over negative data that is problematic to your claims about the Holy Spirit coming into the world through this so called manifestation
    I have not launched into character assignation as you have towards lucia
    I have not used newspaper editorials as proofs as you have .

    I have not cheery picked data that bolsters my grandiose beliefs

    All this from a man who is trying claim credability for his religion .

    Many of your statements are malicious because they are not only false , but blatantly false , and you know they are , but you have not owned up to any of them .

    How can anyone take anything yo say seriously when so many .

    Your demonstrate a spirit of antagonism by the way in which you unjustifiably misrepresent catholicism .

    If you have to prove your religion by assassinating another then you faith are no different to the ones it claims it has fulfilled .

    You prove your religion false by your hostility . How can your religion be the shining light of this world and a beacon of truth and peace when the spirit which lies beneath it is hostile and generates its followers to to spread blatant lies about other religions

  24. You can’t be serious, is the kettle calling the pot black? Major correction to your delusions: I am not hostile you are the extremely hostile one. Read what you just said, you are the one who shows no love of Jesus in attacking other peoples religions to elevate your own and dedicating a website to that. It is you who puts people down for their ideas or beliefs if they support Baha’i theology. You must not read what you say. Reread what you say about the Baha’i Faith, your entire website is dedicated to one thing: justifying your denial of Baha’u’llah and resignation from the Baha’i Faith by elevating and promoting the perceived superiority of the Catholic Faith. I am hear to dispute your allegations and slander of the Baha’i Faith.

    I didn’t establish a website dedicated to discrediting the Baha’i Faith while building up and crediting the Catholic Faith, that is totally YOU. Those things come from YOUR hands not mine. You won’t even answer my questions and instead you go off on these irrational rants attacking me or anyone who defends the Baha’i Faith against your allegations and your delusions of and promotions of the Catholic Church and doctrines. If I hated Catholic like you hate and disrespect Baha’i then I would build a website like yours defending why I became a Baha’i from being a former Catholic. I will not apologize for defending my Faith against your websites put downs of it, where you constantly try to show how Catholicism is superior and better.

  25. Its really demonic trying to attack a Faith, justify your backsliding and then build up your new religion by comparing it with your former one. Thats doing a great disservice to the world, believe me.

  26. Again I ask you, since you want to prove your new religion is superior to Baha’i, answer these questions: Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.
    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  27. Dr J , this is not my website .

    Do you see how divisive this man has become . Now we have two competing Christs’
    I and virtually every christian cannot accept with all sincerity that Jesus was ever going to return as a mortal individual again just to confuse people between his two historical selves , thus raising consternation and division about himself .

    Christ fulfilled his purpose on this earth .

    The question thus arises ; which Jesus do you believe in ?????

    The very nature of Bahaullah’s claims have brought great division between Bahai’s and Christians because , as I just stated , we now have two competing Christ’s .

    According to Bahaullah , all the Christian “divines” have deceived men to such an extent that once Mohammed had arrived that were incapable of coming to terms with his manifestation .

    I challenge any Bahai out there to tell me what was so great and important about the teachings of Mohammed that all Christians should have abandoned their Faith in Christ left their post and taken up the cause of Islam .

    I utterly reject Bahaullah’s claim that Christian divines have deceived the people . If all these men could have deceived so many , then why not Bahaullah too . If all these men could have deceived , then one more doesn’t add a lot to the equation

    Christian persons have every right to question any person that claims to be Jesus or a prophet especially in view that Christians believe that Christ is Truly God and truly man . Among other things ,Christians who would adopt an Islamic or Bahai view of Christ would actually be “downgrading” . I and every other Christian that knows Jesus intimately would not be be truthful to themselves if they blindly accepted  any new revelation from any individual . That does not necessarily make me hostile . It means that I am prudent and cautious . You may disagree with this analysis , but that is your prerogative .

    The nature of Christ and our Trust and fidelity to him is a central feature of our faith . Jesus Christ was no mere manifestation of God like perhaps Moses or Abraham , but is in fact God almighty who has visited his people in person .

    Jesus is infinitely beyond Moses and Abraham for many reasons , and the following verse presents us with further proof of Christ superiority to Moses and Abraham , who according tho Bahai’s are equal manifestations .

    Remember that Moses and Abraham were not worshipped as Christ was .

    John 8:58-59

    Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you, Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area.…

    I want to present the following texts to further support our claims that Christ is none other than the Eternal God

    1 John 4:1

    1.Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world
    2.This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God,b
    3.and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus* does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
    John tells us that there is a malevolent spirit active in the world that has been deceiving people through false prophets

    John assures us that we should stay focused on the truth of the incarnation . John here also re-affirms what he has stated in his Gospel , that we must accept Christ as the eternal Son of the Father WHO came to us through the incarnation .

    Below is in part the greatest theological statement ever penned in the history of this world . No utterance or stroke of the pen has ever decreed a truth so manifestly important to mankind .

    For all the eloquence of Bahaullah’s writings , none of his words have ever decreed a truth as profound or as important as this

    JOHN 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word ( Jesus ) , The Word ( Jesus ) was “with God” and the Word “was GOD” .

    Christ was “with God” and “was God”

    Jesus is his Fathers’ exact representation and is his substance . He is the Eternal God who created all things . Christ is in essence the same God but a distinct person from the Father . Christ is the Eternal Word who was “WITH” God from all eternity .

    Isaiah also prophecies that the coming saviour will be none other than God himself :

    Isaiah 9:6

    “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD , Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” .

    This is also a prophecy that Bahai’s try to claim for Bahaullah Christ and erroneously attribute to Bahaullah . This is none other than an effort to fallaciously attribute prophetic literature to someone other than who it is intended for ……Jesus Christ .

    The other prophecys too point to Christ as the fulfilment .

    Its really fails when one tries to conceive that Isaiah would be prophesying of two Christs . Since Christ fulfils all other OT prophecy concerning the promised on off God , its a bridge too far to attribute this prophecy to Bahaullah

    Christ is none other than the Emmanuelle , The God who has visited his people as Mathew alludes to from old testament prophecy .

    Matthew 1:23

    …22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel” (which means, “God with us”).

    Christians do not honour Christ , they worship him because he is their God , the eternal and everlasting king and sovereign ruler of all nations .We have absolutely no need whatsoever to incorporate another Jesus into the mix , nor should we abandon him for another .

    There is no Jesus but Jesus

  28. First of all, Baha’is don’t believe all the Manifestations have the same impact on the world, Jesus had more impact than Moses or Abraham but they all are one nonetheless. We love Jesus and believe in Him, so much so, that we have opened our eyes to His return by a new name. Something Christian Templar’s who built their homes at the base of Mt. Carmel were waiting for but were blind and did not have an eye to see Him when He appeared to them.

    This entire website is built to elevate the Catholic Faith and tear down the Baha’i Faith. So lets be clear about who is the attack person, its this websites builder–a disgruntled former Baha’i who has an ax to grind and who suffers from apostasy.

    As an ex Catholic I have not built a website to tear down the Catholic Faith. Although I think its seen its better days and today is just one of 38,000 varieties of Christianity, I still respect and love it. Don’t pretend there is any version of a unified Christianity or Christian thought, that is delusional. I will say that I have four aunts who are nuns who have devoted their entire lives to Catholicism, so the respect is there for my former faith. BTW, Muhammad came to this world to re-establish monotheism and disprove the false doctrine of the Trinity. The idea that God is divided into three is a doctrine this link shows is not one that all Christians share, see:


    Catholics and Protestants hate each other in Northern Ireland, they have fought in Europe for a long long time, creating a growing division, an expanding amount of atheism and secularism which only the return of Christ by in the Glory of the Father (Baha’u’llah’s name in English) can change.

    Religions (Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Christian, Islam etc.) that are born in rural cultures centuries ago are not meeting the needs of modern urban cultures. They are not going to reawake Europe to God and create any spiritual reawakening, that is why Baha’u’llah came as promised by Jesus Himself.

    You cannot explain the miracles of the Bab in front of thousands. You cannot explain, what force caused the profusion of inventions from 1844 to the present, more than all recorded history combined to create the earth as one country, a central principle of Baha’u’llah. Was it just a coinsidence that Baha’u’llah as banished to Israel and pitched His tent on Mt. Carmel (the Mountain of God) and fulfilled all that Bible prophecy as chronicled in books like, He Cometh in Clouds or Thief in the Night? Christ made it perfectly clear that “God is GREATER than I (Jesus)” those are His words. Here is a small amount of other proof: To a Christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

    ‘And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’ (Exodus 3:7)

    God forgave sin before Jesus’ appearance, and He continues to forgive without any assistance. When a believer sins, he is to repent sincerely in order to receive forgiveness. Indeed, the offer to humble oneself before God and be saved is made to all humankind.

    ‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22, Jonah 3:5-10)

    Biblically, people can receive forgiveness of sins through sincere repentance sought directly from God. This is true at all times and in all places. There has never been a need for the so-called inter cessionary role Jesus plays in attaining atonement. The facts speak for themselves. There is no truth to the Christian belief that Jesus died for our sins and salvation is only through Jesus. What about the salvation of people before Jesus? Jesus’ death brings neither atonement from sin, nor is it in any way a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

    Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus:

    *What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh?

    *During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood that was shed from his wounds? Did the cells of his body die as ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)

    Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death?

    Unless Jesus’ body never underwent ‘decay’ during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo ‘decay’ then he was not truly human.

    Bible says that God is not man

    ‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)

    ‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

    Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible

    ‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

    ‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

    ‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

    ‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)

    The Bible says that God is not a son of man

    ‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

    The Bible often calls Jesus ‘a son of man’ or ‘the son of man.’

    ‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)

    ‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)

    ‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)

    ‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)

    ‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)

    In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).

    Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called ‘the son of man’, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called ‘son of man’ specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a ‘son of man’ according to the Bible.

    The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God

    Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

    And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

    Jesus did not teach people that he was God

    If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

    The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus

    ‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

    ‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

    Jesus cannot be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

    Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him

    ‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

    ‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)

    ‘The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)

    If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself

    Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

    In the four volume series, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah it shows He performed miracles in front of witnesses, including bringing His gardener back from dead. But witnesses to the miracles of Baha’u’llah or the Bab do not prove THEIR mission, their words do. You are trying to make something out of ignorance and misrepresentation of Baha’i beliefs, and at the end of the day, by “denying Me you deny all the Prophets of the past and showeth pride toward God from all eternity to all eternity” so you lose Jesus in the process, a very bad deal for you.

  29. BTW, you did not answer, for a good reason, these questions above, so I will re-post them for you Catholic58.Again I ask you, since you want to prove your new religion is superior to Baha’i, answer these questions: Do you really think that Baha’u’llah was placed in the Holy Land by chance? Tell me, was it something He chose to do? That all the Bible prophecies about the later days in Palestine or Israel did not come to pass as shown by scholars like Michael Sours or George Townscend? Was Baha’u’llah pitching His tent on Mt. Carmel a chance event? Why did Christian German Templar’s built houses at the mountain’s base waiting for Christ’s literal return? Then its amazing that you can disregard these divine happenstances and say it was the devil or chance that these events occurred. The Templars, like you, were blind to His appearance when Baha’u’llah after He was let out prison visited them telling them the good news of His personage they were convinced otherwise. But according to you all these events happened for no reason.
    I suppose the miracles of the Bab did not happen in spite of the thousands of impartial witnesses or you have come up with some concocted explanation for it? What about the miracles of Baha’u’llah as chronicled in the Revelations of Baha’u’llah series of books did not happen in spite of the people who witnessed them? Or you weren’t a Baha’i long enough to have read these books? The fact that the Baha’is have the sacred land of Mt. Carmel and Acre Israel, is all for no reason other than to fool Christians?

  30. To answer your question about whether all this was done to fool christians : I will say this:

    Even the Millennialist’s or German Templars , whose heresy was condemned by the church 1500 prior to this heresy resurfacing , still would not have been so naive as to see Bahaullah as Christ returned , for they too know that Christ was resurrected Bodily and are awaiting His Glorious return from heaven , the way in which he left as clearly stated in the new testament . The apostles “witnessed” Christ ascension into heaven and were told that his return would be in the same manner of his departure , not a rebirth into the womb of another woman , for that would be impossible as christ already was in possession of a physical , glorified body . Christ therefore did not dispose of this Glorified and incorrupt Body and become a mortal man once again

    Its interesting that the Carmelites also lived on this mountain , but unlike the Templers were not poised on this mountain awaiting the return of Christ , because they knew there was no way of knowing when Christ would return . Even Christ in his humanity did not know when he was returning , so how is it that mere sinful men could calculate something which Christ himself did not know ???

    Christ even stated that the Angels in heaven , who would have knowledge beyond any earthly person did not know.

    Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.…

    Besides that , They certainly were not expecting their Jesus to waltz by and pitch a tent , so that would ultimately explain why the Templars would not have “recognised”his person-hood . There was absolutely nothing to recognise .

    Its interesting too that Mary has a strong prophetic ,biblical and historical connection to Carmel . In fact she is called our Lady of mount Carmel because she appeared to St Simon Stock

    in fact Mary , by no mere coincidence , has a connection to the old testament unparalleled by anybody save Christ .She is also the fulfilment of Gods promise to ultimately save humanity with her son as told in Genesis .

    The Mother of Jesus has manifested herself here at Carmel , which of course has far greater implications than it might seem at first .But alas I will not get into that here .

    It seems utterly preposterous that Jesus would return as a distinct human being and compete with himself for his own honour and glorification .
    Because he has been raised corporally from the dead . Jesus christ cannot be two human persons .

    Christ did not come in Glory when he entered this earth 2000 years ago , because he abandoned his glory in heaven to take on the role as servant and slave . *****

    Phillians 2:6-7
    Who,* though he was in the form of God,d
    did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.*Rather, he emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,coming in human likeness;*and found human in appearance,

    Christ had emptied himself of his Glory to become a man and a servant . As a mortal human person Christ was “not” in his Glory .

    He did , however , “possess” this Glory of his as the eternal God manifest in the flesh , but that is not the same as being “in his Glory” . The transfiguration of Christ at Mt Tabor demonstrates that although Christ was not “in his glory” as mortal man , he did possess within himself , subdued and hidden within his humanity ,all the attributes of God , which he revealed to Peter John and James

    It was not until his resurrection and ascension did Christ finally return to his glory . This is the glory in which he existed before his incarnation .

    If Christ is to return “in his Glory” as scripture tells us Then Christ cannot become mortal again because he has already conquered death .

    Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    Christ will retain his Glory when he returns and “not” return as a slave and servant . By returning as a mortal Christ would therefore “NOT” be in his glory ,he would be subject to death once more , which is impossible as Christ cannot be subject to death anymore Therefore the expectant return of christ will be exactly as promised by the Angels at his ascension .

    Acts 1:11

    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Christ is never to die again ………..why , because he has conquered death and has risen bodily to his glory with his Father

    the Bahaullah cannot therefore be the returned “Glorified” Christ , because he ultimately died and subsequently was ‘not raised” from the dead either as Christ was . Bahuallah therefore has no power of death .

    In the book of certitude , The Bahaullah tries to convince us anyway that he is the returned Christ by re-interpreting the events surrounding Christ’s return . He believes that Christians are wrong to believe in the literal return of Christ , but he has magnificently underestimated the faith of Christians , and for my money it demonstrates his detachment from understanding the certitude and faith that Christians have towards their Lord God and Saviour , Jesus Christ .

  31. St John tells us to test all spirits to see if they are from God If there are good Spirits , it follows that there are also bad or malevolent or Demonic spirits .

    You said that its demonic to attack a faith .

    You say that my hostlilty is demonic . Bahia’s don’t believe in demons , at least not personal ones ????

    To Answer your statement about whether I believe the Devil is the cause of this revelation , I will say this to you :

    There is absolutely no doubt that Satan exists . Jesus says of him in

    John8:44 “
    He is the Father of lies and was a liar from the beginning .

    This is no allegory . Jesus Christ has assured us that the devil is an historic personal being who lies and deceives

    Its very convenient for Bahai’s to reject the idea that Satan is a real entity , because genesis tells us that it be the Woman and her seed that will ultimately destroy Gods emeny .

    GENESIS 3:15
    “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

    that doesn’t fit very well with Bahai concepts so they reject that satan exist entirely so that they can propagate their own Christ who Bahai’s believe will have victory in this world

    Again we have two competing Christs’ , One is the real Christ and the one is another Christ competing with first for Titles and Honours

    There is a spiritual war going on in this world and it is between The Spirit of Christ ( The Holy Spirit ) and father off lies ( Satan ). Satan can and does deceive many people . He has power that is unimaginable and has an intelligent beyond what mere mortal men could comprehend . Satan can and does influence men …..yes even intelligent , God fearing people can be lured and deceived by him If they allow themselves to be left vulnerable .

    I believe that Satan would relish any moment when any person might not Confess Christ as their Lord , God and Saviour .

    I have known someone who had diabolical possession as well as heard testimony of priests , as exorcists , that have come in contact with diabolical entities . This is not the stuff of fantasy . The internet is full of testimonials from satan worshippers who have been converted to christianity and testify that satan is real and is powerful .

    There are a plethora of saints too have given testimony to the reality of satan
    I am not attacking your faith with falsities , I just don’t believe that your Bahuallah is Jesus , and I am voicing my reasons for not believing . That does not make me malicious . If I was spreading lies about the Bahai’s then that would be quite another .

    There is much much more I could say about this , but I will leave it at that ; i think I have made my point here

    I will discuss this further down , but first I want to address the following :

    Do I believe that the Bahaullah went to Carmel by chance?????
    Of course not is the answer .
    This is what I believe .
    I believe that your Bahaullah believed he was Christ returned . I have no doubt that he truly believed this . He is not the first person to believe he is Jesus either . There are many people have believed that they have been Christ and this is not a new or isolated phenomena .

    I don’t necessarily believe he deliberately set set out to fool people as such . I don’t necessarily believe he was malicious to the extent of deliberately deceiving people , but I cannot know for certain one way or the other . My opinion may change as time goes on . I do believe , however , that he had a festering hatred of Catholicism as you do and his writings adequately demonstrate this . For me this hatred of Catholicism is the opening of the door for “satanic suggestion” .

    I believe that he was an extraordinarily intelligent individual , a gifted writer , and that received mystical visions ; but i am not at all convinced that every mystic receives authentic visions or revelations from God . I believe that evil spirits can cause people to have mystical experiences in order to pervert true mysticism that does comes from God alone .

    We have to test these spirits . there are numerous catholic men and women who have received mystical revelations too and St Pio testifies that satan had actually tried to deceive him by appearing as Mary as well as beat him with chains . There are a plethora of catholic Mystics who have had beautiful visions a swell as horrid ones from demonic forces

    I believe that many of Bahaullah’s social teachings are good and reasonable , but not all of them , in particular his view on polygamy , but there are more . I certainly admire his efforts to bring about some change in the social sphere of humanity but I utterly reject the grandiose indulgence of Bahai’s that naively believe this new social model will change all of humanity forever , bearing in mind that , contrary to Bahai teaching , God does indeed have an adversary and he is still reigning wild on this earth and has not as yet been dealt his final blow . That adversary is Satan

    It is going to take something dramatic to change the course of this world and a mere social blueprint is just not going to be enough to change the hearts of all men .

    We only need to look at the depravity of this world to see how much our world has descended morally in the last 150 years. The advances in technology have been offset by the grand depravity of the modern secular world , particularly the unparalleled evil of abortion….but I digress

    As I stated in a previous post , I believe that Mirza Husayn Ali gave himself  this name Bahuallah ( Glory of God )  in a conscious , deliberate and methodical attempt to somehow align himself with biblical prophecy . If he was going to call himself Christ returned then it was of an utmost importance that he change his name Bahaullah and journey to Carmel .This subsequent journey to Isreal ( in particular Carmel ) was necessary for him to achieve this so called  fulfilment . Pitching his tent in Carmel was a deliberate and well thought out act in order to claim prophecy fulfilment .
    So yes I believe he went to Carmel  deliberately and was part of his master-plan if you like .

    As I stated in previous post ; I find that the self bestowal of the title Bahaullah ( glory of God ) was opportunistic and a purposeful manoeuvre by Mirza Husayn Ali .

    That does not qualify for for biblical fulfilment

  32. There you have it Dr J , I answered your question . Lets continue this conversation . .

  33. Just like I thought you have no explanation for the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Nor can you explain how Baha’u’llah wound up in Palestine not by His own hands, an act of government which helped Him fulfill so many important prophecies. You are dumb founded and have no reasonable explanation, period.

    You are blind and your reification of sacred scripture is wrong, simply dead wrong. You have taken that which was strictly spiritual and materialized it. The same sin the Jews did in reifying Old Testament prophecies in not recognizing Jesus when He came the first time.

    The Buddha, who in many books is compared with Jesus, said whenever the world is in decline another Buddha will come, and yes finally the fifth Buddha of universal brotherhood, exactly Baha’u’llah and not Jesus. Jesus did not come to bring peace and brotherhood but a sword. The Universal House of Justice, placed by no chance on the Mountain of God, says it well here:


    In many of His conversations Christ speaks of the future Manifestation of God in the third person, but in others the first person is used. He says: “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself” (John xiv, 2–3). In the first chapter of Acts we read that the disciples were told, at the ascension of Jesus: “This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Because of these and similar sayings, many 223 Christians expect that when the Son of Man comes “in the clouds of heaven and with great glory” they shall see in bodily form the very Jesus Who walked the streets of Jerusalem two thousand years ago, and bled and suffered on the cross. They expect to be able to thrust their fingers into the prints of the nails on His hands and feet, and their hands into the spear wound in His side. But surely a little reflection on Christ’s own words would dissipate such an idea. The Jews of Christ’s time had just such ideas about the return of Elias, but Jesus explained their error, showing that the prophecy that “Elias must first come” was fulfilled, not by the return of the person and body of the former Elias, but in the person of John the Baptist, who came “in the spirit and power of Elias.” “And if ye will receive it,” said Christ, “this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” The “return” of Elias, therefore, meant the appearance of another person, born of other parents, but inspired by God with the same spirit and power. These words of Jesus may surely be taken to imply that the return of Christ will, in like manner, be accomplished by the appearance of another person, born of another mother, but showing forth the Spirit and Power of God even as Christ did.

    Bahá’u’lláh, whose name you don’t have enough respect to spell correctly, explains that the “coming again” of Christ was fulfilled in the advent of the Báb and in His own coming. He says:—

    Consider the sun. Were it to say now, “I am the sun of yesterday,” it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of 224 all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.—Kitáb-i-Íqán,21

    ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
    Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but rather signifieth the One promised to come after Him. He shall come with the Kingdom of God and His Power which hath surrounded the world. This dominion is in the world of hearts and spirits, and not in that of matter; for the material world is not comparable to a single wing of a fly, in the sight of the Lord, wert thou of those who know! Verily Christ came with His Kingdom from the beginning which hath no beginning, and will come with His Kingdom to the eternity of eternities, inasmuch as in this sense “Christ” is an expression of the Divine Reality, the simple Essence and heavenly Entity, which hath no beginning nor ending. It hath appearance, arising, manifestation and setting in each of the cycles.

    You are simply blind with no spiritual eyes to see, you will find this truth out on judgment day, that I assure you. Whats even worse is the justice that you must face for being the conductor of this terrible website. I see no point in carrying on this discussion with a spiritually dead man.

  34. Just briefly regarding the quotes from Scripture that you have sited i will say this ;
    The reference to Ezekiel “God is not a man” presents no problem for catholics because , this was written long before Christ became man .It doesn’t qualify .

    The other quotes from scripture that you have presented about Jesus being subordinate to the father ; I have also answered those too . I present Christ as a servant of his father as a human person , therefore he is beneath his Father as a slave but as God , he is Christs equal .

    Christ has two natures , human and Divine . In his humanity and as a servant he is beneath his Father but as God he is his equal . So that would explain the anomalies or apparent contradictions

    I will site Johns prologue again just in case you didn’t grasp the essence of who Jesus is

    JOHN 1:1-26
    In the beginning* was the Word,

    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.a
    He was in the beginning with God.
    * All things came to be through him,
    and without him nothing came to be.b
    What came to be
    through him was life,
    and this life was the light of the human race;c
    * the light shines in the darkness,d
    and the darkness has not overcome it.
    * A man named John was sent from God.e
    He came for testimony,* to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.f
    He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.g
    The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.h
    He was in the world,
    and the world came to be through him,
    but the world did not know him.
    He came to what was his own,
    but his own people* did not accept him.
    i But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,
    * j who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
    And the Word became flesh*
    and made his dwelling among us,
    and we saw his glory,
    the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
    full of grace and truth.k
    * John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said,l ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’”
    From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace,*
    because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.m
    No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God,* who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him.n

    Bahai’s do not believe in Christ . Except for a superficial honours they have given him , Bahai’s have their own Jesus and prefer to give him honours instead

    Christs is not in completion with himself

  35. Of course you have no explanation how or why Baha’u’llah got to Israel to be imprisoned, nor why He would give His fortunes to the poor to become penniless. Nor do you have explanations for the documented miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

    Have you ever noticed that all the exorcisms and demonic stories originate with Catholics almost exclusively, maybe its a coincidence but thats true. Thank God for skeptics societies and science which has debunked so many misrepresentations of God like Lourdes and other such trickery.

    You have no response for the growing number of Christian denominations that are now denying the Trinity notion as well. Its false doctrine as proven by the words (e.g. God is greater than I) of Jesus Himself, none of which you have ANY explanation for.

    Christianity is now outdated and impotent by internal strife and division, going far from the pure teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you must admit. Christianity is way to impotent today to change secularization and narcissism in the U.S. and Europe. Why because put very simply its outdated, the Catholic rituals are outdated and believers are falling away and not going to mass. The Churchs power has been taken away with the return of the Father, hence it is no longer relevant to the spiritual needs of modern man. Only through the Baha’i revelation can this Old World Order be changed. Keep waiting for Christ to come in clouds for every physical eye to see, in spite of the fact that the Bible warns of false prophets which if He were returning in the sky we would never need to be warned about because it would be so obvious to all. It has to be spiritual and figurative but you have no eyes to see, you are blind.

  36. You are totally ignorant of our love and devotion to Jesus. You are a liar, Baha’is definitely love Christ just as much as Baha’u’llah.

    Since Baha’u’llah and Jesus are one, so by your denial of who Baha’u’llah is, you lose Christ. William Sears, Hand of the Cause of God, who was a former Catholic, made that statement. Baha’u’llah says it in the Tablet of Ahmad. No imposter could write so many wonderful books and prayers, the Bible has so little compared to the Baha’i Sacred Writings, which are relevant and current for modernity.

  37. Postscript: the first book of the bible did not come to pass until no less than 75 after Christ died. The entire bible was assembled in no less than 200 years after His ascension. There are no original books of the bible today, sad to say. So the Baha’i Sacred Writings are all in Baha’u’llah’s own pen and are original and preserved in a vault on Mt. Carmel. This is historic, no Manifestation has accomplished that. So we have original documents to go by, this is a first in religious history.

  38. This is the Day of God, your judgment is your decision to deny Baha’u’llah. Some will be taken and some will, stubborn as they are, remain.

  39. I have answered your questions thoroughly and concisely .

    By the way , I have read all these explanations and quotes from the Bahai reference library . I find them unconvincing at best

    And i have thoroughly sited scriptural proofs for my claims too , let the readers decide for themselves

    Secondly , I couldn’t care less what Abdul Baha says . He is only trying to propagated his fathers religion and in doing so will reinterpret scriptures to fit the Bahia theology in order to sway people into believing that his Father is Jesus returned .

    I Have given solid proof for Christians belief in the literal personal return of Christ

    There are no “cycles of manifestations” . this is concept of the Bahai’s.

    Secondly Bahuallah visited Carmel by his own free will . He stayed there for 3 or 4 months by his own doing .

    Even if he was forced to go to Carmel , he still gave himself this title Bahaullah . That does not constitute his fulfilling of scripture because its opportunistic . That was within his control.

    Also There is no peace in this world as I have stated several times now It will be 200 years next year since the birth of your Christ .Have a look around you , the world is dark , but the light of the true Christ will remain in this world as he promised until his Glorious return .

    Matthew 28:17-20
    17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.d.

    Did the apostles worship Christ ?????…..they sure did . The above scripture speaks for itself

    Jesus never rebuked his apostles for worshipping him . The fact that some doubted makes no difference , because if their doubts were well founded , Christ would have rebuked his apostles . Alas he did not

    Comparing the denial of the Pharisees towards Jesus to the denial of Bahaullah is a redundant claim that has no basis in the historical facts of the matter . The reasons we deny Bahallah are very different from the reason the Pharisees rejected Christ .

    The Pharisees ultimately rejected Christ because he claimed to be God .
    We , the faithful of Christ recognise Christ as God and we worship him as did the apostles , and we have done this ever since .

    To accept the Bahaullah and subsequently the Bahai view of Christ is to once again reject him as God just as the Pharisees did and replace him with another christ .

    So lets be real about this ; Drawing on the denials of the Pharisees does not bolster the Bahai argument , rather it renders them void when you look at the broader context .

    In his Letter to the Pope Pius 9 , The Bahaullah tries to parallel this claim and predicts his demise at the hands of the Pope or his demise at the hands Christians in general . The Bahaullah believes that he will suffer death at the hands of the contemporary religious leaders just as Christ did
    “Would you crucify me once more” , he says .
    “My Body longeth for the cross and my head for the thrust of the spear”

    But alas he was not and died of natural causes .

    Saying that I am Blind with no spiritual eyes to see means nothing too me , its water off a ducks back . I know who my God is.

  40. The Bahaullah and Jesus are not “one” Its only a claim that has no basis in truth when one investigates with the Spirit of Truth

    I don’t don’t deny you love Christ but you do not give Christ his proper due , whereas we do .

    As i have explained rather adequately before , if we were to accept Bahaullah , it then follows that we would adopt a version of Christ that is inferior to ours and contrary to that which is incumbent upon all human beings , and that is to worship him as our Lord God and Saviour and to accept no other than him .

    We have no recourse to accept another Jesus , we have the original and true Christ .

    It Was only a matter of time before you pull out once again “the bible is unreliable” out of your hat .

    This what Bahia’s do when there is nothing left for them to cling to .

    Firstly , if the bible is as unpredictable as you say , then Bahai’s must cease immediately from using it as proofs for their claims , end of Story .
    Secondly , the manuscript evidence actually does not support the claim that the Bible is unreliable as I stated before in a previous post .

    Daniel B Wallace is an absolute genius and i have seen one his youtube rebuttals of Bart Ehrman . He has taken Bart Ehrman to task over his book “misquoting Jesus” and I recommend that Every Christian should read his brilliant rebuttal on Bible.org under the heading ” The bible according to Bart Ehrman”

    There are numerous amounts of Christian apologists who have gladly joined forces in refuting these erroneous claims too .

  41. All you and the Catholic Church are doing is simply making claims as well–the very thing you accuse me of. You have absolutely no proof that all other Manifestations of God are not from God as you suggest.

    The Bible contains the words of God but is not without error, I find myself having to repeat endlessly to you. I don’t accept either Ehrman (who rejects the bible altogether) or Wallace (who believes its inerrant), I just say it contains the words of God and much of it is from God, as is the Koran and other Holy Books. BTW, the Catholic bible is different and has more books that the one of Wallace but I need not go into that either.

    You have ignored acknowledging the long standing intra religious conflicts of Catholic and Protestants that has gone on for centuries in Europe, you skip over the crisis in the Church of declining enrollments of nuns and priests creating a church crisis, you ignored the immoral protection of priests who have raped and molested boys from criminal prosecution by Church Bishops, and much more. Moreover, you try to argue the world is as bad now as ever, which is not true. Its a false argument because modernity is better today in alot of things. For example, we have seen a reduction in prejudices, the promotion of the equality of the sexes (in spite of sexism in the Church priesthood and hierarchy) and reductions in every ism. As a PhD I can show you plenty of proof to back that up.

    You simply are treading on thin ice, trying to promote a sinking ship. You have denied the truth of Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroaster. Zoroaster and His religion is almost of duplicate of Christianity, again lending credence to my theme of the oneness of Gods Messengers. Your arguments are shallow and without merit, plain and simple. You deny what Christ Himself clearly says about His station. He doesn’t say God and man nor try to make that distinction in His clear statement, God is greater than I. No other way to interpret that statement. Gods attributes are reflected in Him, He is a mirror of them. But He is not part of God’s essence that is crystal clear from HIS statements. Moreover, the skirt over or resist addressing the points I have tried to raise. This is a waste of my time.

  42. You have no proofs that they are from God .

    Why do you site Ehrmen if you don’t accept his testimony .

    Why don’t you tell me what errors the bible has and we will discuss them .

    Please tell me what you think Christians believe when they say the Bible is inerrant .

    In matters of faith , the bible is inerrant Dr J

    And so what if Wallace has a bible with e few less cynical books .
    What is your point ???

    My arguments are shallow and without merit . I disagree ,I have presented good arguments Dr J

    I have not ignored the inter religious division between catholic and protestant but The Bahia faith has only only added to interreligious conflict . So your view on this ” conflict ” is only inflamed by the emergence of a new religion …..yours .

    There is no credability to the belief that these men who you call messengers of God, are from God at all , because they all teach different things .

    The belief that they all did teach the same thing once upon a time is unverifiable Dr J , and all we have is your Bahaullahs word that they did , and that is not sufficient because nobody can test this claim .
    You raise the Child abuse claims once again , but these criminals that have done this are not representative of the whole . they are not part of our faith

    You think the world is not bad now . As I have stated more than once , Abortion , the killing of innocent human beings , is so prevalent that this cancer in our society is responsible for more child murders than all wars combine throughout all of history . All that in 50 short years .

    What an indictment that is on our society

    Or do you consider these lives to have no real value in Scheme of things

  43. I read recently read a Bahai review of Michael Sears Book “The prophecies of Jesus”

    According to the reviewer ,one of the things that Micheal Sears states is that Jesus , in the Olivet discourse , predicted the end of christianity by the advent of Islam and then again with the Advent of Bahaism . He said that christianity was given its institutional obituary notice , not once , but twice .

    The problem with the olivet discourse is that it is does not present a clear foretelling of future vents and some of the events that were foretold could be interpreted in many ways by the “vain imaginings” of anyone trying to interpret them

    The fact that this ex catholic has interpreted these event as “obituary notices” for the church fails miserably , and heres why .

    The only clear and unambiguous prophecy Christ made of the Church is this


    …16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.…
    And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.”

    Firstly Christ blesses Peter for his great proclamation of faith , and that faith is what the church is built on , namely that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God .

    Then Christ renames Peter Kepha (rock) and its upon that Rock of Peter that Christ would build his everlasting Church

    He then bestows on Peter and subsequently all elected Popes , an authority that has universal significance . He gives this office of Peter the power to bind and loose , and decrees that these binding would be ratified in heaven .

    Christ gave this authority to a sinner ,a mere fallible man , even one that would deny him during his passion and run away . but christ gave it to Peter and his successors anyway

    No Pope , even if he had great personal imperfections and character flaws , cannot formalise any doctrine that is contrary to truth . This truth rests on the same infallible faith of St Peter .

    The Holy Spirit , the Spirit of truth , which Christ promised the apostles , came to them at Pentecost , thus giving birth to the Church that was to endure forever .

    The Spirit of truth is the safeguard against error .

    Nothing like this that has its equal in history

    Christ then proclaims that his church will endure permanently . There it is in black and white .

    Christ never promised a Church without trials , nor did he promise a church that would not make mistakes or one that would not be assailed , but he did promise that it would endure forever .

    These so called “obituary notices” are fanciful and are the construct of wild imagination .The Church that Christ did build has endured for 2000 years dispite the threat of Islam and will continue to endure until he comes to take his bride ( The church ) upon his actual return .

    The Bahaullah , in the book of certitude , tries to convince us , that the Christian “divines” have deceived men to such a degree , that when Mohammed came into the world , the Christians were incapable of recognising him .

    The Bahaullah has a festering hatred of Catholicism . This anti-Catholic bias is inflamed by his by his own biased Islamic heritage .

    Promoting a sinking ship am I !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  44. Dr J i think I need to explain again . Jesus Christ is either God or he isn’t . He cannot both be God and not God at the same time .

    The laws of noncontradiction come into play here

    John 1:1 clearly states that christ was with God ( as a distinct person ) and was God from all eternity .That means he has his essence with the Father.

    I and the Father are one

    Not only is Christ God , but he is the creator of all things .

    His apostles worshipped him . What more evidence do you need .

    You keep saying i have glossed over things and all you have done represent an argument which I have already given you the answer to .

    so please let me give it you again .

    As a human and a servant of mankind ,and a slave in his human existence Christ was subordinate to the Father because he was not in his Glory with his Father. That does not mean that he is not his equal as a Divine person of the Godhead . It just meant that he was subordinate on his humanity during his 33 years on Earth .

    I answered this question already , but I have just answered it again

  45. Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator

    1. Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
    Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

    2. Matthew 26:39
    My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
    Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    5. John 5:19
    The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
    Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

    6. Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
    Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    9. Matthew 27:46
    My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
    Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

  46. You are so uneducated and myopic in your thinking that I find myself continually having to repeat myself to you, the very thing you accuse me of doing. BTW, anytime you want to compare our educational levels, I would be more than happy to. In brief, AGAIN, you avoid answering many of my questions, essentially anything you cannot invent an explanation for. Case in point is the documented miracles of the twin Manifestations of God–no explanation from you.

    The bible contains the words of God and has wonderful teachings (save slavery which Baha’u’llah was the first Manifestation to ban it) but it in know way compares to the Baha’i Sacred Writings in breadth or depth.

    I suggest you read the errors and actual contradictions via the research not just of Ehrman (I said clearly I don’t agree with alot of what he says but bring him up as if I side with everything he says) but another scholar among many is Carlson. Wallace is a Baptist preacher so he would not approve of Catholic bible justifications for purgatory or would he approve the additional books of the New Testament in the Catholic bible. Yet you use him as your scholar to support the Bible but he rejects Catholicism and its bible, kind of interesting contradiction I would say. See Carlsons work, which I show you because the only totally error free books are the UHJ approved translations of Baha’u’llah’s teachings. See Carlsons work on errors and contradictions of events in this link:


  47. In the 7th chapter of the Book of Acts, the disciple Stephen is being stoned to death and he has a vision of the two Messiahs:

    “But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus, standing at the right hand of God;” (Acts 7:55)

    Jesus did not speak English. He spoke a Galilean dialect of Aramaic and what the bible renders as “Glory of God”, “Glory of the Lord” or “Glory of the Father”, Jesus said “Baha-u-llah”. Contrary to the current Christian teaching about the Glory of God, it is not just some nebulous spirit that emanates from God like you or the Christian clergy try to explain. For instance, they say that the Glory of God that is next to Jesus in the vision of Stephen is a spirit that comes from Jesus, as Jesus is God. But the Bible teaches otherwise:

    “And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form…Such was the likeness of the Glory of the Lord.” (Ezekiel 1:26-28)

    The “Glory of the Lord” is not a “spirit” but is a “human form” meaning a person. A person who is seated upon a throne which is the throne of David. Like Jesus, the second coming of Christ, Baha’u’llah, is a “Manifestation” of God or one who receives the thought of God directly and then reflects it to the people.The Manifestations are like pure and finely polished mirrors that reflect God to the people. They are like mirrors, because a mirror, when brought out into the sunshine of the day, is able to reflect the full image of the sun. When you look into the mirror you see everything that the sun is: the disk of the sun, the heat and the light of the sun. If the mirror were to say “I am the sun”, the mirror would be speaking the truth, and if the mirror were to say “the sun is in me”, again, the mirror would be speaking the truth. Everything that the sun is, is in the mirror and is reflected perfectly through it. Now, the sun is a million times bigger than the earth and the earth is a billion times bigger than the mirror and in no possible way does the sun shrink itself down and fit into the mirror, what you see is only a reflection of the sun. In like manner, it would be easier for the sun, being a million times bigger than the earth, to fit itself into a mirror one can hold in their hand, than the One, True, Invisible God who pervades all space and all time, to fit and incarnate Himself into a human being. Manifestations reflect God’s message to the people via the spoken word. The Manifestations are endowed with the Holy Spirit which is the complete thought of God that they then impart to the people through the spoken word or have it written down in a book. The Manifestations of God are human beings with the special capacity of being able to receive and transmit the thought of God. They are human beings, but they possess one more thing or quality which sets them apart from all others. This can be best illustrated with the example of some things from today’s technology. We have no original Bibles either Catholic or Protestant versions, but have all of the Bab’s and Baha’u’llah’s writings and with their own pens I might add.

    Our daily lives we are continuously being bombarded with thousands of invisible waves, microwaves, television waves, radio waves, etc. No matter how hard or long we may try to meditate on what these waves are saying, we will never be able to pick them up. It is only when we turn to the radio or television set, the instrument that has that special capacity to receive those waves and broadcast them, are we able to discover what those waves are saying. Again, the same is true for the Manifestation. Only the Manifestation of God has the capacity or special “equipment” to be able to receive the Holy Spirit or the complete thought of God and then broadcast it to the people. There are no competing Jesus’ what a silly and ignorant thought. The return of Christ simply is different than the reified interpretations various Christian scholars of the 38,000 varieties of Christianity believe. BTW, some believe Christ will return on earth by a new name so there is not universal interpretation or belief among Christians on how Christ will return.

    This planet needs the Manifestations of God to become aware of the presence of God. Man is a spiritual being and is in need of the education of the Spirit through contact with the Manifestations. God does not speak to us with a big megaphone in the sky, nor does He talk to us individually. The only way that God will communicate with His creation is through the Manifestations of Himself. God is an invisible, infinite essence and the only way that we can perceive of God is not in His essence, but through His Manifestation. Through the knowledge of the Manifestations, we as human beings are able to evolve and progress both physically and spiritually. The physical side of the human being is the vehicle for our spiritual side. It is the form we are in when we first come in contact with the knowledge of God. The Manifestations bring laws and ordinances to regulate our physical world and help in the creation of civilizations. Only that will cure the Protestant and Catholic wars and the decline of the older faiths in their abilities to spiritualize a secular Europe or America.

  48. I don’t particularly care if Wallace is a baptist preacher , I have a great deal of respect for many non-catholic scholars . James White , J.P Holding , Davis Wood , William Lane Craig , just to name a few . I can recognise an intelligent man when I see one .

    So I may not agree with all Wallaces theological positions , but his work in refuting Ehrman has nothing to do with his theological position and everything to do with his historical analysis and has done so with brilliant insight and sound scholarship .

    So no its not a problem for me that I reference any of these men in particular Wallace as the occasion needs . I think its more off a problem for you than me because you who sited Ehrman in first place , and for what reason you did this is still uncertain to me

    You want to compare education levels do you . I couldn’t care less weather you have multiple university degrees or not . I think you might feel a little threatened by someone you may not have all the pieces of paper to state his intelligence , but can none the less have a serious debate with you .

    I am proud of that and I wear it with pride , so if you feel threatened enough that you need to draw that card , then I am utterly pleased with my efforts . thanks for bringing that up , i appreciate it .

    The Manifestations bring laws and ordinances to regulate our physical world and help in the creation of civilizations. Only that will cure the Protestant and Catholic wars and the decline of the older faiths in their abilities to spiritualize a secular Europe or America.

    I SAY
    What protestant and catholic wars are there happening .
    As I posted earlier , the Catholic church enjoys Christ favour and has endured , just as he promised it would , despite the threats of Islam , the separation of the protestants , the rise of militant Atheism , secularism , New Christ’s , false prophets , and the list goes on and on .Contrary to the claims of Bahai’s , their own religion is just another in mix and really is nothing than the inception of another form of division .

    The Catholic church will endure forever

    “Some believe that Christ will come with a new name”

    I SAY
    Never met a single one who has ever held this view and even if they did , it proves nothing whatsoever .

    Any way , moving on :

    Not one single verse that you sited above states that Jesus “DID NOT CREATE ALL THINGS”

    You infer it only , but none of these verses states that Christ “DID NOT” create all things . None of them , not a single one .

    The most challenging one is the temptation of Christ and state

    John 1:1 utterly destroys these Bogus claims . John 1:1 clearly states that Christ is God form all eternity that he created everything

    He was worshipped by the apostles

    Dr J , I will now I will explain Jesus humanity….again

    Christ was subservient to his Father as a Human person . We understand all these verses you site , but they have no hinderance to us catholics and our belief that he is the Eternal God because we understand that Jesus came as a servant and slave and relied on his Father.

    Christ was , in his humanity only , limited in his power . but Christ could and did exercise his divine power at his will , which he did at the transfiguration and through his “Glorious Resurrection”.

    Jesus , as well as having a human nature , also had a DIVINE nature that was eternal . This is the Divine and eternal nature of Christ that created all things .

    COLOSSIANS 1:19 . The “FULLNESS” of God dwelt in him.

    This means that Christ as the creator of the universe , and as a human person had within himself the entire mysteries of God to its fullest degree .

    This christ has within himself the Essence of the Godhead .TO THE FULLEST DEGREE . Not just a reflection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Christ is not merely a reflection of God , but is his essence .

    Your so called manifestation is about as much needed in our society as there is another Christian sect . We don’t need another source of division , which is really what your faith is : another

    The bahai faith is just another division in the cycle of religion revelations .
    And Absolutely Yes there are two competing Christ’ . Not a stupid thought at all Dr J , because as I stated before you have your Messiah and I have mine . Your Bahaullah is another man , born from another woman in another time , trying to obviate the true essence Christ to some “mere manifestation” , thus reducing him to something of a decree less than he deserves .

    Your Bahaullah may not fire bullets , but the pen is mightier than the sword . Your Bahaullah has shot at the bows of the christian faith by his words .

    Your Bahaullah , has tried to usurp the “true” station of Christ for his own personal glorification .

    The so few reference that Bahai’s make of Christ in their liturgical practices , demonstrates clearly that Bahaullah has has , at least amongst the Bahai’s , succeeded in usurping christ from his true station

    Also , countrary to your utterly superficial understanding of Catholic theology , we do not believe that the glory of God is some nebulous spirit emanating from God .I have never heard any Clergy , or any other christian say that at any time .

    8. Matthew 6:9
    Our Father, which art in Heaven.
    He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

    MY RESPONSE . Jesus isn’t the Father so he would not have stated such and its erroneous to suggest otherwise

    7. John 14:28
    The Father is greater than I.
    This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

    Refer to my previous post regarding Christ humanity

    3. John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
    Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

    Jesus received his earthly life from his Father , but his divinity is eternal with God and is not created

    10. John 17:21-23
    . . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
    In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

    No Dr J , not two beings , two persons , one Being .

    4. John 5:30
    By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
    Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

    Jesus , as a distinct person of the Godhead is not trying to please himself but his Father who is also distinct person of the Godhead

    12. Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
    Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

    Jesus , in his humanity , did “reflect” the majesty of God , but that is not
    to say that he was not Divine
    COLOSSIANS 1:19 . The “FULLNESS” of God dwelt in him.
    It is only reflected in so far as we mere mortals can not perceive god in all his Glory . That is why Jesus is said to reflect the majesty of God , whilst at the same time has within himself the “Fullness” of God

    James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
    Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

    Jesus DID NOT say “don’t call me good” . You have misquoted this passage
    Jesus actually asks a rhetorical question “Why do you call me good , because only God is good “. Here Jesus is equating himself with God because Jesus is “the Good Shepherd” .
    Jesus said to satan , ” Do not put you Lord God to the test . Jesus here states that God can be tested which is in fact what Satan has tried to do with Christ .
    So when scripture says that God cannot be tested it actually means that God cannot be thwarted or subverted , nor surrender his will to an inferior being or cause .
    Jesus was allowed to be tempted in order that he reach perfection . This does not mean that Christ was imperfect , like us sinners , but rather he was to endure all the ravages of humanity so that he could unite himself with us in a deep and personal way .

    God , through Christ his son , is thoroughly acquainted with our suffering through and through

    14. Hebrews 5:7-9
    During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
    Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

    Christ did learn obedience , but that does not mean that Christ wass ever disobedient
    Christ reached perfection in the sense that he had to endure the same trials as us in order to be united with is in our struggles , so that through his perfect example , we too may endure all thing for his glory . Thats what is so great about our God , he has visited us and is acquainted with our suffering .

    So all these scriptural references , once properly understood , pose no hinderance whatsoever to our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord , God and Saviour of the entire world , past , present , and future .

  50. Nothing you have said above actually successfully answers the facts posted except in YOUR eyes, so don’t give yourself credit for sticking with a PhD Catholic58. Actually a PhD is not important in the sharing of the above and below facts that you are literally blind to in your shallow understanding of Baha’u’llah or the Bab or the Baha’i Revelation.

    I know the Church of God believes Christ will return on earth by a new name as He did the first time, which is at least one example and I know there are more, I am not prepared to do that research at this moment, since I am a full time Professor with other obligations. This church is one Christian sect who doesn’t reify scripture concerning His return in the clouds for physical eyes to see.

    I have sent you examples of Christians (e.g. Ehrman, Bishop Spong and others) who don’t reify the Resurrection story as Catholic leaders have. There are many sects who will not accept the Catholic Church’s notion of the Trinity, plain and simple. I suppose you think that the division of the Christianity into a growing number of 38,000 different varieties of belief is a sign that the Catholic Church is strong? No person in their right mind would accept that kind of delusional thinking. Here is your cold shower: The Catholic Church, unlike the Baha’i Faith, is not growing but is rapidly losing its followers. The Catholic Church, in the mind of any fair theologian, is not going to be revived to the point of changing secularization. The trends toward the Protestant Reformation (a term well put) are simply increasing not decreasing, watering down the Catholic influence in Europe and elsewhere. Instead, Catholicism IS losing numbers to evangelical Christian groups everywhere (e.g. S. America, Africa and so forth). This trend is likely to continue in this century. Although it doesn’t take people off its rolls, the Catholic Church’s reason for its lack of appeal is obvious, its rituals are becoming less fulfilling to a growing literate and educated global population. Moreover, fewer and fewer people are wanting to be celibate clerics or nuns. When Baha’u’llah declared the equality of men and women and the elimination of clergy, when He warned the Pope to sell his gold and go out into the world, He set the stage for the democratization of religion. After that declaration, a gradual trend of democratiztion and laity empowerment has taken over the Catholic Church from handing out communion to less and less functions of priests. Its this way in all sects of Christianity, thanks to His coming to this planet and the democratization of religion.

    Moreover, you can neither answer or deny the Church hierarchy having a sin covering eye to church priests molesting and raping children or youth on a fairly wide scale. This is a fact that even the Pope is troubled by and one that I myself experienced. I know boys who as men committed suicide as the result of being sexual victims of Father Jensen and his priest friends who sexually abused them. This was a huge problem not only in Iowa where I grew up but also when I was at a University in Louisiana. Bishops protecting sex addict priests from criminal prosecution. The U.S. news have a ton of stories about this and the Pope himself is terribly concerned about how to stop it. Yet he hasn’t apologized to the thousands of victims to my knowledge and agreed to come up with a plan to stop these sex offenders. Yes, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and other world faiths that persist, the Catholic Church will persist for a long time as they have. However, the mountain of evidence of its lack of social impact (e.g. secularization of Italy and Europe) and its decline in enrollments you cannot deny. The Baha’i Faith has persisted and grown in spite of your efforts to sabotage it, with such a hateful website as this.

    Finally, you have no explanation for the chronicled miracles of both the Bab (Herald of the Baha’u’llah) and Baha’u’llah, so you avoid any answers, well done. I am finding this entire discussion redundant, you don’t answer questions or skirt around them and the answers you do give are hardly convincing for any fair minded thinker.

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